Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Technical discussion of ARC products
Braeden910
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Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Braeden910 » January 11th, 2019, 11:36 am

So this past summer I was out sailing my SC15 by myself in fairly heavy winds (didn’t have the jib on). I was having a blast flying across the lake/river (Lake Pepin) with 1 toon out of the water, hanging off out on the trapeze! Amazing sailing! Amazing sailing that is, until I tipped in the middle of the Mississippi River channel. Ok, not that big of a deal I’m 16 years old, weigh 140 lbs, I’ve been sailing since I was 8 (anything from sunfish to E-scows and have tipped and righted everything from sunfish to E-scows but no cats) and have read all righting directions and other tips from Bill multiple times. So I’m out there and I’ve got a rope up and over the high hull and looped to hook onto my harness but I can’t get it back over. After about 15 min I see a barge coming around the bend towards me and so I just had to keep trying in case the barge didn’t see me so I wouldn’t get ran over and killed. Eventually the barge got to me and pulled up along side and help me right it (actually getting in the water with me and getting it righted huge props to those guys!) in the process I broke the on the mast so I need to find parts to fix that. But later I realized that I didn’t undo the righting feature. Would the righting feature have helped that much? What should I do? For reference there were white caps on the lake maybe about 15-20 knot consistent wind with higher gusts?

havliii
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by havliii » January 12th, 2019, 4:27 am

Braeden910,

If solo do not use the hyfield lever and slack the side stay, you will never get the side stay re-pinned when sailing solo. can give more description why later.

Option 2: read up on righting bags, buy one, carry it at all times, rig your boat with the proper lines for this bag, practice in calm water, works every time, 5-10 minutes.

Option 3: most fun and in my opinion best option, carry a drogue anchor, the drogue is deployed off the bow, holds the boat head to wind, center the traveler and cleat the main sail, now lean back on the righting line and wait. mast slowly comes up, wind goes under mast, main sail fills, main sail is now lifting the boat, boat sails itself upright. easy peasy, no strain on you or the boat. retrieve the drogue, sail away.

Matt Haberman
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Matt Haberman » January 12th, 2019, 7:42 pm

Braden,

I'll respectively disagree with Havliii about not using the righting system. The righting system was designed so one person could right the SuperCat 20 and works extremely well on the SuperCat 15. I will agree that reconnecting the shroud when by yourself can be difficult, but if you use your trapeze harness to hold the rig upright while you reconnect the shroud it is doable.

You are pretty light so Havliii other suggestions are also good and something you might want to consider.

I would suggest tipping the boat over in a controlled environment next summer so you can practice righting it and finding a technique that works for you. In the mean time how does the ice look down there? I saw on the local news there was a lot of ice boat activity last weekend...
Matt Haberman
Aquarius Sail Inc.
http://www.aquarius-sail.com

Braeden910
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Braeden910 » January 12th, 2019, 11:15 pm

Thanks for the recommendations guys I will have to try it next summer! Ice is great near lake city and have had ice boats out there the past 2-3 weekends, by Frontenac (where we are) it is not very good though.

havliii
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by havliii » January 13th, 2019, 5:01 am

hopefully more members will chime in with their thoughts on the righting subject

if you plan to use the hyfield lever and extend one side stay be sure that you have pinned the mast base at the rotation ball before sailing away from the shore. (this is a rigging oversight that everyone makes occasionally) if the mast base is not pinned and you extend the side stay the mast can move entirely off the ball, things get nasty then.

most capsizes do not occur in light air and flat water (why would they?) be prepared to solo right in the nasty stuff, if you master the techniques it will open the door to more aggressive sailing. whatever method you decide on, plan ahead and add all the necessary attachment points to your boat. have everything handy, easy to reach and assemble.

older mast pedestals are not reinforced with a stainless rod in the center, they can and will snap in half if you extend the side stay and the mast is heaved over the side for an extended time in heavy air. even with the stainless rod I have witnessed them bend the stainless and break the aluminum casting.

when you extend the side stay and get the boat back on it's feet flat, the mast will be hanging off the side at about a 30 degree angle, 140 lbs will likely not be enough weight to bring the mast back to vertical. you will have to stand the mast by performing "the jibe from hell." tacking is not possible so you will have to get air on the side of the main sail that still has a pinned stay. a jibe accomplishes this, it will stand the mast in less than a heartbeat, and you might have to change your shorts. now you're off and sailing again with only one stay attached.

next trap out low side, bring the boat head to wind, let go of the helm and now move your weight back inboard to pin the stay (the hyfield is alongside the hull), pray that while you are doing all this the boat doesn't auto tack through the eye of the wind, cause if it does, the mast is going back over............. (rinse and repeat)

I did say in the first post "never" maybe I should have said it's not likely. What I am saying is; in heavy air and heavy chop there are easier and faster ways to right the boat solo.

I promised a long reply, this was it.

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 16th, 2019, 8:43 am

I just came up on this forum item by accident. I have never read such a misunderstood, misused and abused righting system in my life. Also people are giving advice that is wrong and or omitting important points. It makes me wonder, why did I design a mast raising and lowering system and righting system that would work and operate safely? People, boat owners, don't work it right, don't understand,give out advice when they don't know what they are talking about. What's the use?
Before I ever designed a catamaran, I witnessed this: A H16 sailor and his girlfriend were raising the mast on a H16. The guy was at the back of the tramp to lift the mast while his girlfriend was to hold down on the bottom of the mast at the base. When the guy raised the mast from his waist to his shoulder with a sudden jerk, the mast base slips between the girlfriends hands and it hits her in the mouth breaking several teeth and knocking some out and breaking her nose. Blood flew in all directions.
The first few years that H16s were produced, there was no hooking device between the mast base and the mast cup. I guess enough bad accidents had to happen and finally the factory responded to the accident reports and made a mechanical connection to use while raising and lowering the mast.
Last edited by Bill Roberts on January 17th, 2019, 4:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 16th, 2019, 7:34 pm

OK, I'm going to write something on this subject and try control my emotions/temper. Braedwen, Whenever you drive a strange car, be sure you know how to drive it. Just because you have driven a Ford and a Cheve and a PLym, that doesn't mean you know how to drive a Ferrari. You never read any SC righting instructions suggesting, " you rig a righting line over the upper hull to help right the boat". That is a Hobie thing. That is technically incorrect. It does not help right the boat. If you want to understand this, take some engineering courses like Statics and Dynamics and Kinematics. Properly exercising a SC righting system breaks nothing and works every time.

havliii, of course "the mast base pin" is in place. How was the mast raised safely without the pin? If pin in place is standard practice, then no problems. Always, always, always go sailing with the mast base pin in place! You might need it. The mast base with the stainless rod is only necessary when someone "miss operates the system". havliii! when the sailor uses the righting system you always extend the shroud that will be to leeward when boat righted. Never, never, never extend the shroud that will be to windward when boat righted. When the boat comes up the windward shroud is tight and the rig is normal, mast is vertical. Only the leeward shroud has slack in it. At this point place the helm totally to leeward. Sheet the main in very slightly and this will push the transom of the boat downwind slowly and the boat will drift sideways very slowly totally under control and stable. Now, the next step is to reconnect the leward shroud and place the lever in the tight position and insert the Avibank lock pin.
More havliii balonie: "when you extend the side stay and get the boat back on it's feet flat, the mast will be hanging off the side at about a 30 degree angle'. How in the hell do you do this??? " Havliii, what you are suggesting here is crazy. "140 lbs will likely not be enough weight to bring the mast back to vertical". You are right, a 240 pound person will not be able to pull the mast to vertical. "you will have to stand the mast by performing "the jibe from hell." "tacking is not possible so you will have to get air on the side of the main sail that still has a pinned stay. a jibe accomplishes this, it will stand the mast/jib in less than a heartbeat, and you might have to change your shorts. now you're off and sailing again with only one stay attached". This only happens if you do everything WRONG, havliii!!!
How in the hell do you ever get the boat and rig in this situation? When a boat has been turned over for about a minute or so, the mast and sails are draggy in the water. The hull and tramp have become sails and are pulling the boat downwind. With this thrust and drag situation, the drag will follow the thrust. In a turnover the mast and rig will quickly be upwind of the tramp and upper hull which have become the sail for this turned over system. The boat has naturally spun around due to the forces acting on it. Now the system is stable and ready to right. Climb up on the mast at the base and open the shroud lever and "pull the extension pin" on the hull up in the air. Uncleat and ease all sheets so when the boat comes up, the sails will be luffing, flapping around and shaking off the water. Now climb back down and gently and slowly move out into the righting position, righting line to trap hook, and here comes the boat rotating up on to its feet right now. The stronger the wind, the lighter weight person can right the boat because the windage on the tramp tends to right the boat also. When the upper shroud extends, it changes the geometry of a turned over catamaran such that the weight of the upper hull moves from tending to be an obstacle to righting the boat to a help in righting the boat.
havliii, I don't know how you get the boat up, righted, with the windward shroud slack and "the mast hanging off to leeward at 30 degrees and flailing all around". I do see how you have done it but I don't want to believe it. Righting the boat with the mast pointing downwind will get you into big big trouble as you describe, mast 30 degrees off to leeward followed by the jibe from hell. At the instant jibe from hell is completed, the severe jerk, the loads in the shroud and compression coming down the mast and jerk on the chainplate and mast base are measured in the thousands of pounds. Someone could very easily be hurt very severely. Do not ever, ever, ever do the jibe from hell again. You could be very severely injured.
Now I see how mast bases are broken. Take the sail down if necessary, reconnect the rig, put the sail back up and go home or paddle home.
Now I see how you can break a mast post/base. To do this you have to do everything upside down and backwards, totally incorrectly. Also, you never. never, never do a jibe from hell, which is an easy way to hurt yourself and break a mast base and no telling what else like shrouds and chainplates and masts etc.

More havliii: "next trap out low side, bring the boat head to wind, let go of the helm and now move your weight back inboard to pin the stay (the hyfield is alongside the hull), pray that while you are doing all this the boat doesn't auto tack through the eye of the wind, cause if it does, the mast is going back over............. (rinse and repeat)
Again you are talking about a situation that can never happen if you operate the righting system properly, per instructions. I have never heard of righting the boat in such a way as when the boat is in the up and normal sailing position, the windward shroud is slack and the mast is flailing off to leeward at about 30 degrees. You have just boxed yourself into a corner and there is no good solution. This stands a chance of breaking anything and everything. At this point surely you say to yourself,"something is wrong here, this doesn't seem right". This can only happen if the boat is righted with the mast pointed downwind and the hulls and tramp up wind of the wet sails and rig. When a boat turns over at first, the mast and rig are downwind of the hulls and tramp, the boat will only stay in this position relative to the wind for maybe a minute. This position is unstable. Quickly the boat will spin around with mast and sails to windward and hulls and tramp downwind of the wet rig. Now extend the upper shroud and right the boat and the system comes up quickly with a tight windward shroud, every time. It will work correctly every time!!! It has been done in this way thousands of times and nothing on the boat breaks or is broken.

Braeden: You can right the boat solo, no problems using the SC righting system if you execute the system properly and a 110 pound girl can right the boat in 15 to 20 mph winds. The stronger the wind, the lighter the weight required to right the boat. The wind on the tramp is tending to right the boat. It is helping you. A 30 knot+ wind will right the boat over and over again with no help from you due to tramp windage as the boat blows away from you flipping over and over on its own moving away faster than you can swim. When it is windy, ALWAYS WEAR YOUR LIFE JACKET.
Also, to extend the shroud: Opening the lever only slackens the shroud tension so that the "shroud extension pin can be pulled". Opening the hyfield lever is no shroud extension.

Summary: Please don't make me explain the SC righting system another time. This was first done in 1976 and I have done it over and over at least a thousand times. I have gone sailing with new boat owners and turned the boat over on purpose and then I have coached them on how to right the boat and it works every time and they end up with a BIG SMILE ON THEIR FACE and no parts are broken, havliii. I'm sure Tom and Matt have explained the system more times X 10 than I have. This is supposed to be "common knowledge" among SC and Aquarius sailors.

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 19th, 2019, 11:37 am

OK Gang,
Double click left on the picture and the picture will fill the screen and rotate 90 degrees. Now you can see how things work and read the words on the picture. When a boat, SC 17 for example, first turns over and has spun around, if necessary, with mast is pointing into the wind, the boat can be righted. . In this position the weight of the upper hull and tramp and upper rudder and rigging blocks and rope etc are causing a counterclockwise torque, W1 x R1. (see picture/drawing) That torque is roughly 100 pounds times a 1ft lever arm, r1, or 100 ft lbs of torque counterclockwise. That is a torque that the person trying to right the boat must overcome. With upper shroud extended, the weight of the upper hull etc is 100 lbs times a 1 ft lever arm to the right, r2. This creates roughly 100 ft lbs of righting torque clockwise. "The change in righting torque" is 200 ft lbs!!! The torque that a 140 lb person can generate is roughly 140 lbs times a 3 ft lever arm or 420 ft lbs. The shroud extension makes a 200 ft lbs of torque change. That is 50 % of the righting torque that Braeden can generate. You are damn right, Braeden, the shroud extension makes one hell of a big difference in righting especially for smaller people. . Without the shroud extension properly executed, you could have been run over by a barge. With the shroud extension executed, you would have had the boat back up on its feet and be sailing again in 5 minutes and be proud of what you did. No other beach cat in the world comes with a righting system. Do you and havliii and many others now have a greater appreciation and understanding for the SC righting system? BTW, it also helps you raise and lower the mast safely.
Righting Syatem S C and ARC.jpg

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 20th, 2019, 10:07 am

Hello havliii,
I read all of the forum input on righting over again and I ran into problems on your Jan 12 input.
Your option one instructions on using the hyfield levers to assist righting a turned over SC are incorrect and end up in a "jibe from hell". Very incorrect and dangerous instructions.
Option 2, I have never tried so I will not comment on the water bag method. .
Option three will not work per your instructions. Your option three with modifications and corrections is mostly for larger cats and is not necessary for beach cats.

havliii
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by havliii » January 20th, 2019, 3:07 pm

continue explaining bill

please note that the original poster asked how to do this when SOLO

explain how a solo sailor holds the helm, drives the boat, traps out to windward and simultaneously re-pins the slack leeward shroud. it is the struggle to re-pin the stay WHEN SOLO IN BIG CHOP AND BIG AIR that makes this system not my favorite. There are other options that work as well or better.

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 20th, 2019, 5:11 pm

Here we go havliii,
Let's assume that we at the point in recovering from a turn over where the boat is righted, mainsail is way out luffing and the leeward shroud is slack
and we have just climbed back up on the tramp, no boat speed.
#1. Helm down hard to leeward!
#2. Trim the main in just slightly so that the back end of the boat is being pushed downwind/sideways at the same speed the bows are moving downwind/sideways. Boat direction is stable now as boat moves slowly sideways no significant forward or backward motion. The boat is stable to stay like this with no further attention required. Helm is still down hard!
#3. The solo sailor moves forward to reach the leeward shroud, both hands free. In the mean time he has made means to hold the steering hard down with his foot or leg or sitting on the tiller extension or sliding it under a hiking strap. Connecting the shroud to the lever and closing the lever and inserting the lock down pin only takes a few seconds with both hands working to accomplish the goal.
#4. Clean the boat/tramp by gathering in all ropes/sheets and put them in their places and hook up, get out and go fast.
NOTE: THIS procedure is SC common knowledge, in the S C manual, starting 1976.

havliii
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by havliii » January 20th, 2019, 5:58 pm

ah...... sounds easy
I must be a caveman.....

never in big chop with the mast bouncing to hell and gone pulling on the stay was I able to align three 5/16 inch holes and then stuff a 5/16 inch quick pin through the three holes before the next wave ripped the three holes out of alignment.

Sorry bill, don't like the system, won't recommend it and 1000 more words isn't gonna make me like it any better. This forum is about our personal experience and sharing. I am sharing my thoughts and speaking to the possible problems that can be encountered. Denying that these things can happen does not prevent them from happening and that is just as dangerous as a "jibe from hell."

No worries, I still love you man.

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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 20th, 2019, 8:41 pm

havliii,
Your mind is made up and you haven't even tried yet to correctly execute the SC righting system. Your experience is backwards from the method explained in the SC manual. Your righting method ends up with boat up and windward shroud slack (how ever that happens; I know but I want you to tell me.) . Then a jibe from hell is required which breaks mast posts and bases and no telling what else. When out in a chop and boat righted from a turn over, the mast is not bouncing to hell when windward shroud and forestay are tight and boat speed zero, not sailing. The mast is not flailing around like it is with your home spun execution. You don't have to use your weight, 150+ pounds, to try to pull the mast up straight while it is bouncing to hell off to the side and swinging around. When the boat is righted correctly, to bring the end of the leeward shroud to the top of the shroud lever arm requires ounces of force in the hands and fingers.

havliii and Braeden: Was the sketch showing how the SC righting system works helpful to you?
\havliii< I hope you will never do a' jibe from hell again'.

Now let's talk about a little of my experience: On Lake Mangonia WPB FL, Two sailing fatalities on brand X beach cat with no righting system.
Daytona Beach, brand Y with three persons aboard turned over about a mile out into the ocean late one afternoon. No righting system. Sailors spent the night on the turned over beach cat. The down hull filled with water by the next morning so sailors decided to swim for shore. One sailor didn't make it, shark attack. Boat company sued and went out of business.

Conclusion: To me it is an insult to the sailing public to sell them a beach cat without righting equipment built in that enables the person or persons sailing the boat too right the boat safely after having turned over. This should be a Coast Guard requirement for beach cats. .

havliii
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by havliii » January 21st, 2019, 5:11 am

Roger that Bill,

You are correct saying that my mind is made up. You just confirmed that "when done improperly" things can break, also true. If a thing can get FUBAR'ed, it WILL get FUBAR'ed that is Murphy's law in action. In my case I had angels on board cause I never broke anything and the boat is still sailing. (not with me though) The issue here is, "can things go wrong with the system?" and the answer is also yes. Villainizing me in this discussion doesn't change that fact. (don't shoot the messenger) I am enjoying the discussion, playing the villain is kinda fun!

Never once for me, not once, did the boat orient itself as you describe, every single time I pulled the boat over the mast ended up down wind and the windward stay became the slack stay this was not by choice. Maybe the conditions? wind, waves, tides? Who knows?

You can't design and build a system and "declare it perfect" until idiots test it. This is the FUBAR rule. I FUBAR'ed this system more than once, I did successfully right the boat, I did sail away with *9 fingers and 10 toes, so does it work? In a word, yes. Do I love it, no, it is not my favorite system.

As for the horror story about sharks, I would guess more catamaran sailors have been killed by hitting power lines than eaten by sharks.
All the best, I'll sign off now.





*lost a thumb previously, not sailing

Bill Roberts
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Re: Righting a SC15, Parts, and Repairing

Post by Bill Roberts » January 21st, 2019, 10:06 am

Thanks for participating, havliii. You are not a villain. You made it obvious to us that we have to follow the righting instructions correctly or the effort to right the boat may not be successful.
That goes for driving our cars and sailing our boats.
havliii you opened the shroud lever on the lower hull, the hull down in the water. Then what you said will happen, did happen just as you described. You got started on the wrong foot. You should have opened the shroud lever on the upper hull as you now know. Then the upper hull moves into a position to help you right the boat, less righting moment required to right the boat. Now when the boat comes up righted, the windward shroud is tight and the leeward shroud is slack. It is now easy to reconnect the leeward shroud with no tension in it to the leeward shroud lever. Next close the lever and insert the locking pin and sail away happy and pleased. I have seen children, teenagers, operate the system with success. Some parents will not let their teenage children go sailing by themselves until they show their parents that they can right the boat. Everybody knows that new sailors on beach cats turn over a few times in the learning to sail process. So, let's make it safe for them to turn over and right the boat. Always wear your life jacket!

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