...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

General Sailing Discussion
havliii
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...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

Okay, here's a new thread, once again r.a.p.a.y.o.r. (read and post at your own risk) the opinions expressed herein are my own and in no way should be construed as relevant, logical, comical or sane. I will add to this thread as time permits. (It's January after all)

back to the kayaking analogy and the 'adequacy equation' There is a great cartoon video about the Pungo kayak. It addresses the Dunning-Kruger effect in a very effective way. What is the Dunning-Kruger effect and how does it apply to sailing? and boat sales? well........... read on. Here is a cut and paste that summarizes the D-K effect.

1. Incompetent individuals tend to overestimate their own level of skill.
2. Incompetent individuals fail to recognize genuine skill in others.
3. Incompetent individuals fail …to recognize the extremity of their inadequacy.
4. If they can be trained to substantially improve their own skill level, these individuals can recognize and acknowledge their own previous lack of skill.

The above points, copied from Wikipedia, about the Dunning-Kruger effect spell-out the themes playing in the video. It serves as an excellent example of some of the dangers involved in rating your own skill level as a beginner in the sport. Because of the D-K effect, when I see newspaper reports about paddling accidents that list the paddler as intermediate, I give pause. Typically, the paddler isn’t.

The video is worth your time, because it’ll make you LOL while informing about a more important issue.
When a rank beginner takes an rental sail boat out for the first time they enter into the first stages of the D-K effect, overestimating their own level of skill. (Raise your hands if you have witnessed this!) A boat that can produce this result is not necessarily a BAD boat, just because it doesn't point or go fast. It produces the desired result, a pleasant and affirming experience. This is a boat that might, in fact, sell well, just as the Pungo kayak did. The Pungo Kayak created an exponential growth in the sport of kayaking because you couldn't capsize it and you could get it back to shore, hence giving a positive result. Sales of the Pungo created a soaring base of customers that eventually desired to upgrade.

Here's the link to the video....... take a look if you want a good laugh about the D-K effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrRglDrPMmQ



............. to be continued...................
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

Yes Dan, I do sail a trailer cat. I prefer it, enjoy it and find beach wheels a giant PITA. In the beginning the whole 'beach cat thing' was California based hence the rise in popularity of the HOBIE Cat. Which, as we know became the generic term all catamarans are painfully lumped into. To a layman we all sail Hobies.

Ramp launching in my humble opinion is far more efficient, less abusive to the boat and requires way fewer steps to 'get sailing.' I can rig and ramp launch in less time than most beach cat sailors rig and fiddle fart around with their beach wheels. I get more hours on the water. I don't have the luxury? (if you want to call it that) of a fixed location. I enjoy moving to various and sundry launch sites in a whimsical fashion following the windcast, finding new and exciting destinations to sail to.

We have different styles and a difference of opinion, no harm in that. Vive la difference!!


............. to be continued......................
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

ok ............ couldn't respond to any of your replies. I was off the grid in Virginia Beach, well not off the grid as they do have internet and electricity but I was busy for three days logging, not sailing. Got some big trees down there! They grow like weeds, fast and tall. Temps approached 50 but I didn't see any sailboats out, lead sleds or cats.

I use a Stihl 660 with a 30 inch bar (96 c.c. displacement) weighs about 19 lbs with bar and chain. Slinging that baby around for three days is good prep for the sailing season. The 660 is nearly the biggest saw that Stihl makes, Stihl is the Supercat of chainsaws, the best there is. Stihl makes stuff for the pros but they also make a homeowner line-up.

Hmmmmm you see where I'm going with this analogy...........

There's no shame in making stuff for the average joe homeowner, the guy that doesn't need the 660 just might be a customer for the lessor saw. But I digress, did some climbing to limb out one 70 footer that the owners wanted to save and then dropped five 60-70 footers to open up the view and the sunlight. Had to add tension on two of the bigger trees to direct them away from the power lines.

If you can't go sailing felling trees is almost as good a rush. You get a great workout and the perma grin from a good drop is equally satisfying. The crack when the hinge breaks and the thump of a 36 inch caliper 70 foot tree hitting the ground................. is pure adrenaline.

................ to be continued..........................
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

Me personally, I just don't get triangle racing......... especially on catamarans! Handicap racing, in particular, never seems like much more than an exercise in cheating. Tell me that handicaps are accurate, ...... yeah sure, right ........ ranks right up there with the three greatest lies known to man!!!! Show me any two Hobie Cats at the local regatta and it's almost guaranteed that they do not meet the class one design rules. Someone inevitably tweaks their boat, lightens it, reshapes it in some way or another. Everyone complains that the 'other' boat has a soft handicap, but not mine of course!!!! My handicap is spot on, even though I have just added a new, not class approved main sail, or self tacking jib or whatever........... Hells Bells it is just a local regatta after all????? Right?????

Sailboat racing is supposed to be a skills competition between sailors racing equal boats. It rarely is. A soft handicap is pretty quick and efficient way of eliminating any test of skills. And don't tell me that you haven't ever complained about handicaps........... you have and I know you have.

I sail for other reasons, plenty of them. I have never believed or bought into the myth that racing makes better sailors, define 'better.' You get better at what you practice, period, if you sail in heavy weather you get better at sailing in heavy weather. If you sail short handed, you get better at sailing short handed.

I have witnessed catamaran sailors that can't tie a bowline or know the first thing about docking. (other than sailing their boat as far ashore as possible) Does it make them 'better' sailors cause they can sail a triangle really fast? Not in my book.


................ to be continued................
J Drew
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by J Drew »

Interesting read, keep it coming
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

Somebody's got to do it .......... post on this forum ................. 'the silent majority' isn't that the saying?

I don't consider myself part of the majority and I am certainly not staying silent, not any longer. I've had enough of the why we need to go faster all the time or race around triangles or buy self tacking jibs. There are plenty of other reasons to sail and sail well. Being efficient is fun but it ain't the 'be all, end all' of my existence. Some days being sloppy, letting a lazy jib tow you home is just plain having fun. I'll often drop the sails on my 'party barge' just to go swimming, I can do that because I have a roller furling jib!!!!! Ever been becalmed in the middle of the bay and seen wild dolphins putting on a Cirque du Soliel show. Triple synchronized tail walks, synchronized front flips, tail slaps, the whole enchilada from a grandstand seat not 50 feet away, and slap me silly NO admission charge. (well the price of a boat maybe)

Yes, I have paddled miles home, and no I won't run out and buy a motor, eff that. Who needs gas when you have arms? Supercats can be paddled fast and YES! wait for it........ here it comes............ EFFICIENTLY!!!! and to think my boat weighs in at an obese 500 lbs. Add to that, my kit bag for safe sailing, extra clothes, lunch, paddles and emergency supplies and we are knocking on the door of 540.

What's the take-a-way? I sure as hell don't need, want, or pay for a gym membership. Paddling when necessary is not a penalty, it's just another part of knowing that I can get back to point A, come hell or high water. Additionally, I carry supplies on board to live to tell the tale. FUN?, I think so.



................ to be continued .........................
Bruiser
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by Bruiser »

OK I will bite. :mrgreen:

First having a well designed boat, means that whether I am racing or just having fun, when the wind unexpectedly picks up to survival level, I am sailing a boat that can handle the conditions. One that will not pitch pole at the first opportunity and one that will not drop the mast or otherwise fall apart.

On the racing side of the equation, I agree with your assessment of the rating picture. However that does not mean one can not have fun.

I will give you a little "story" of my sailing life as an example. I dreamed of getting into sailing since I was little watching boats sail out on our river. However, my family was not into boats. So it was not until I graduated from college that I could pursue my dream. I wanted a catamaran and not knowing anything, I bought a boat I really did not want a Hobie 16.

Now my dream was to sail, not race. Fast forward about 40 years. As I look back over my "sailing life". When did I do most of my sailing? Races. Why was that? Well as I reviewed my life I noticed that the only sailing I was able to squeeze in was for racing. It seemed that when demands from friends and family on my time for weekend projects tried to compete with "just" sailing, I could not get free to just go sailing. However if those same folks tried to get me to do something and I responded with sorry I have a race at 10:00 o'clock Saturday morning, that excuse worked. As long as I had a valid appointment to do something "serious" (like "racing") I had my opportunity to sail.

So looking back, I could be defined as a racer, as that it the only time I really sailed. I never defined myself that way and don't even now. However, fact is, that was the only excuse that even worked on myself. The reality is no one else ever knew the racing I did meant nothing to anybody, even if they were paying attention.

So now, I tell everyone to get into racing. Not so they can become great sailors. It is because they can make an appointment to actually go sailing and it is one that other people will tend to not interfere with. It is a successful appointment. Whether they actually "race" is irrelevant.

Now as I drive by marina after marine looking at all those boats that just sit there. Those are the sailors who do not race. I guess they are waiting for that perfect day. Most likely though, their desire to just go sailing does not cut it with the demands of life. Time is hard to come by. To fit in sailing to busy lives takes some very good organization. Racing can really bring order to that chaos.

Cheers
J Drew
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by J Drew »

Well Bruiser, I can understand your point. If I don't have a goal to shoot for, then things can easily get put off. The "perfect day" will never come. It will, but most likely I'll have something else going on.
The mug, for me, is that goal. Where I place in the crowd is secondary to finishing.
To address my thoughts on racing, I have always felt that competition takes away from appreciating the art of sailing.
No doubt few share this thought, and more power to them.I have dreams and a desire to win, just like everyone else, but I deal with competitive egos all day every day. It gets old.
I like the peace that sailing gives me. I don't need to beat anyone to appreciate that.
However much of a dream it may always be, I still would like to win the mug, not to be the first boat over the line, but the feeling of accomplishment that I did the best I could and achieved a goal.
Perhaps that's contradictory, and maybe only I understand it, but I do, and that, in my book, is what counts.

PS. Havliii, keep it coming, bring it on.
Last edited by J Drew on February 2nd, 2015, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mac M
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by Mac M »

I started racing simply because there were no other cats on my lake, hardly any mono's either. When I started (about 5 years ago) I had no previous sailing experience and was learning from the internet and trial and error. The local group around here, EMSA, scooped me up and taught me what I know now. If it hadn't been for the EMSA group and racing I'd probably still be bobbing around on the lake here on a badly delaminated 1975 H14.

Really doesn't matter to me whether someone races or not. I do prefer to be out on the water with a bunch of cats, and it seems to only happen for me when I race. I envy those of you who have groups of cats you can get out on the water with, we have to travel for that.
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

If you guessed correctly, you already know that these are mostly the random ravings of an addict that can't get a fix........... brain dumps if you will. I like to write and this board is pretty much a blank canvas that I get to slap letters on. Bruiser, evading the 'honeydew' list is always a legit reason to go sailing!! ....... anyone that has sailed with me knows my philosophy 'any day' is a 'perfect day' to go sailing! Some years I get more days than others, that's normal.

Water and boats, that's my addiction, there is no cure, no patch, no methadone, only water and boats can meet the needs of this junkie. It's an addiction that started at the cradle and will be with me to the grave. Let's start with canoes as a baby, move to kayaks in grade school, lettered rowing eights in high school, kayaked the Grand Canyon in college, built and rowed a dory through the Grand Canyon, later sailed same dory down the Missouri, was arrested, tried and convicted for kayaking the Grand Canyon of the Yellowstone River, began a white water outfitting biz and sold same, placed second in the National Marathon Canoeing Championships, rowed the Secretary of the Interior through Bear Trap Canyon, a grizzly swam across the river in front of our boat. (it ain't called the Bear Trap for no reason) Hired by Jacques Cousteau as the 'on camera double' to guide the Cousteau Team in a made for TV documentary..........

there's more, plenty more... but ....... ENOUGH ALREADY ............... you get the picture ............

Sailing is not optional for me, excuses there are none, I need the fix, the kick, the high, that only water and boats can deliver. Like a true junkie I will forego nearly all else to get that fix, it is a dangerous addiction. You burn through money and hours in pursuit of the perfect tack, jibe, hoist, docking or whatever. When winter descends puttering about the boat is way better than the NFL. (My wife is the football fan in this house) Fixing what ain't broke is considered rational!!!! Hours spent reading the Annapolis Performance Sailing catalogue is considered reasonable and sane, right??............ RIGHT?????

So you see, I can't 'not go sailing.' I would be impossible to live with and my attire would be a straight jacket. I'm counting the days now ............ 36 35 34 .........
maybe I'll have to go canoeing tomorrow, calling in sick................... yes .... really .... I have a disease, there is no cure.


........................ to be continued.........................
J Drew
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by J Drew »

I truly envy people that have the ability to go sailing when they want to. We all have obligations, but to be able to change them at your will is a gift I wish I had.
I have to schedule time off. Then when I get home, catch up with the backlog of necessary projects BEFORE I get to play. Not to complain about it, we have to do what we have to do. It is what it is and changing it at this point isn't an option.
To be able to spend time on my boat to get the adequate practice is something that will happen in a year, or so, but unfortunately, not now.
If this makes me "less of a sailor" then so be it.
I still, and WILL ALWAYS, love the "Art of Sailing"

As long as we're sharing histories, here's a bit of mine.
I grew up in Miami in the 70' and 80's. I would often go down to the beach and admire the catamarans. It was then that I saw "the SuperCat" It was definitely jaw-dropping.
Not being part of the "in crowd" only served to show me a desire to achieve. Not to win or beat anyone, but eventually acquire my "aquatic Ferrari"
It's well designed and well manufactured, and in my opinion, still one of the best performance boats around.
I'm proud to have it, in the positive aspect of pride.
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

Monty Python sings one of my favorite songs about how insignificant we all are....... the one about Mrs Brown and the universe....... google it if you haven't heard of it. My addiction to water and small boats keeps me connected to the planet in many ways, mostly in awe........ One of my stomping grounds on the Rappahannock river yields many surprises, feeds my addiction and keeps me humbled. I do a lot of beach combing to find flotsam, police the trash and collect the the errant crab pot float.

Finding a 20 million year old shark's tooth is a real Monty Python moment, some Megalodon shark lost that tooth and left it there for me to find 20,000,000 years later............... go figure.
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J Drew
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by J Drew »

Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt
havliii
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by havliii »

J Drew wrote:Far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure... than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much, because they live in a gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt
I love that one, J.

........... if you ain't living on the edge you're taking up to much space .........
'unknown'

will return to the catamaran musings later, dealing with parental Alzheimers, 2nd trip down this road. so, yes, obligations can and do divert ones attention from sailing.

............... to be continued ..................
J Drew
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Re: ...... to be continued......... r.a.p.a.y.o.r.

Post by J Drew »

After thinking about it, the Hemingway quote could've been easily misunderstood and offend those whos achievements I respect
Intention isn't always taken the same way
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