A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

General Sailing Discussion
Bill Roberts
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by Bill Roberts »

havliii,
The M32 thing is struggling. Marstrom himself is out of the catamaran/sailboat business. The Gold Cup 32 or 33 or 35, whatever the number is, is growing fast and forming a world wide competition, something like the World Cup in soccer. The GC boat is a foiler that works, It has large foils that help it get up early but they also limit top speed. The M32 is done. The M20 is done. Marstrom is out of the sailboat business, much invested and no profit. The GC foil boat has stolen the show.
AS far as foil boats for the beach catter: There will not be fleets of foiling beach cats around the country and at yacht clubs. WHY??? Weather conditions assuming cost is not in the picture! There are just not enough wind-right weekends to make it go. For the last AC Race, San Francisco Bay was chosen for its weather and winds. Even at this so called perfect place for foiling ACs, there were days they did not race because there was too much wind or too little wind.
There was a carbon foiling NACRA20 in the MKL race this year, end of April. The race was to windward. The foiling boat foiled part of the time. It was triple trap for us. The foil boat and the first M20 went across the finish line together 18 minutes after we finished.
If the race had been a beam reach and blowing 20, the foil boat would have won the race by miles, but the weather wasn't right, perfect. Some day it will be perfect and the foil boats will win by miles ahead of displacement boats. That is going to happen once in a great while. The weather is perfect and fair and equal for all the displacement boats every weekend.
havliii
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by havliii »

Weather is weather it's not perfect, fair, equal or impartial, it just is. What boat we choose to sail, (in whatever weather) is ours to choose, nothing else. If one boat is happens to be dialed in, so be it. However 'the sun don't shine on the same dog's butt every day' That's an old euphemisism for maybe it will be 'your' day and maybe it won't.

Have the foiler's stolen the show or are they just a waste of time? Which is it? ya can't have it both ways.
Eric2101
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by Eric2101 »

seems to me that if you are drag racing or running around the cans they are faster due to reduced friction/drag. Beach finishes and starts in surf seem to be a problem because of the amount of unprotected $$$ below the bows.
Eric Arbogast
Supercat 15
Bill Roberts
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by Bill Roberts »

Eric,
One foil boat made it in fine, no problems. He is a south Fla person. The other foil boat was not sailed by a south Fla person,
his "onto the beach plan " was flawed and he had major problems

There have been foil boats in the MKL Race for ten out of the last twenty years. These foil boats would foil nicely in the right conditions. Sailing at 25 to 30 knots was common when they could foil. The conditions have not been perfect for a foil boat for the entire race, half of the race maybe but not all of the race.

This year the NACRA foil boat was up on the foils at the start. It looked good but he was reaching and everyone else was going to windward. The foil boat fell off to leeward quickly and in a couple of minutes he came off the foils and sailed to windward with everyone else. The boat was a little slower than the M20. The M20 beat the foil boat under the Card Sound Bridge. The wind picked up some after the Card Sound Bridge and the foil boat foiled some and beat the M20 to the finish line by a few boat lengths. We finished 18 minutes ahead of these boats on the RC30 in a 3 hour race.
If ARC built a foiling catamaran, would you buy one? Answer, NO! And ARC doesn't want to spend $100K on tooling and development to build and maybe sell three foiling catamarans.
Eric2101
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by Eric2101 »

Foiling cats are a rich mans game anyway.. we are not going to grow the sport on their backs but they add alot of excitement and interest. My young adult kids cant afford to move out of the house,,, much less buy a foiling cat. or any cat for that matter. us grey hairs need to get back into sailing for fun, not racing, to entice others to the "sailing lifestyle" and then get them into a race now and again. I think supercats and arc's are a perfect platform for that approach.

it has to be fun, and cool.

Eric
SC15
Bulldog
Eric Arbogast
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havliii
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by havliii »

30 feet against 20 hardly seems like a fair fight. Why don't we use the corrected times? Handicaps suck, I should know, I posted that in a thread somewhere on this board. One of the Marstom 20's won, on corrected time, of course. But how else do we compare 30 feet of waterline to 20?

Foilers are here to stay, soon they will foil upwind, downwind, reaching whatever. Problems will be solved and lessons learned. Course records will be obliterated. Foils will be as commonplace as daggerboards, centerboards or rudders. It will happen, because that is human nature, we don't stop inventing. Isn't that the same thing you did Bill, improve an already existing technology? Foils are the next progression, not everyone will adopt or adapt, but they are here to stay and things will change, that is the only thing that remains the same.
Bill Roberts
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by Bill Roberts »

havliii, I think the correct length comparison is 30ft vs about 8 inches when a 20ft foil boat is foiling. Talking waterline length comparisons between displacement boats and foiling boats is like comparing wheel base length between a Detroit automobile and an airplane. The comparison means nothing. They are different vehicles and limited by different vehicle measurements.
An RC 27 holds the Miami to Key Largo Race low elapsed time record. It is a 26mph average speed for 42 miles set 1992. If or when conditions are right for a 20 ft foil boat in the MKL race, that system can probably average 36 mph foiling on an 8 inch waterline. Again waterline length means nothing when comparing top speeds between a displacement boat and a foiling boat.
As to the M20: The boat came to the US about 10 years ago with a PN of 54. This was a well proven, 2 yrs racing in Europe, PN according to Marstrom himself. The boat was actively raced along the Fla E coast against mostly remnant H16 groups. The boat did not fare well on corrected time. The owner sent race results to US Sailing. This is one M20 and the same sailor. The next two years the M20 PN went from 54 to 55 and then to 56 the next year. The race results included the MKL race and the Mug race from Jacksonville. The next year was the big jump. The M20 PN jumped to 58. There is a US Sailing rule in PN bookkeeping that says the PN for any boat may change a maximun of 1 percentage point based on a previous year's racing. The first owner finally sold the boat, PN at 58, and it is now owned by a serious sailor who came from the Tornado class and raced in Olympic Trials. The M20 now wins evry race it sails in on corrected time. In addition to this, about 4 years ago the two M20s in Miami installed curved daggerboards from the factory. According to the owners, a big improvement in boat speed. This year at the MKL race I noticed the M20s have new sails, a different color caught my attention. I also noticed what looked to me to be a much larger square top on their mainsails. I asked the owner about the larger sail and he said, " O yea, this sail is much larger than the old one". Still no change in M20 PN. The Miami boys love their 58 PN and do not want it disturbed. They send no race results to US Sailing.
SC and ARC PNs have stayed the same as originally calculated by the factory. A couple of years ago the RC30 PN was changed by US Sailing from 54 to 53.3. This is on a 1995 boat. For reference purposes the PN of a Formula 40 catamaran is 54 and this is a 40 ft boat and a million dollar plus price tag when built.
havliii
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Re: A Common Problem with the Latest State of the Art Boats

Post by havliii »

Thanks for the background on the PN. Everyone loves a soft PN, as long as it is theirs. Nobody loves a soft PN when it belongs to the other guy. You keep beating everyone and they will just lower yours again, NOW THAT is the Proverbial Catch 22.
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