Forestay Attachment Point

Technical discussion of ARC products
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drjay
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Joined: June 19th, 2014, 8:15 am
Boat Make/Model: ARC 17

Forestay Attachment Point

Post by drjay »

So I have my ARC 17 and enjoying it. I see the forestay and pelican striker are attached via a small pin and split ring.

Now I imagine split rings have been around for some time and work fairly well.

I have a concern as this small ring seems to be under great pressure holding forestay and pelican striker together.

How often does a ring fail? I imagine a ring failure on the lake would result in mast coming down and clearly would be tough to re step on the lake (assuming I had a spare ring).

I am wondering about an alternative setup such as a threaded shackle or maybe a cotter pin which I could replace for $.20 each time I sail.

Maybe I am too concerned but being new to all this I want the "best" setup possible.

I imagine if the split ring was not a preferred option the ARC would have come with something akin to a threaded shackle or key shackle.

So am I overthinking this or just lookingfor something"better"
Matt Haberman
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Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by Matt Haberman »

The Split ring should be under little to no load if the pin is installed correctly. The concern with split rings is that they can get snagged on lines and can come undone that way, the solution to this is to tape the ring with a high-quality self-adhering rigging tape that does not leave adhesive behind. The split ring should last forever, but in reality you will drop it in the sand and lose it first :D

There are also self-starting split rings which are really not a good deal and should be avoided at all costs. I would also stay away from screw pin shackles on the standing rigging in most cases unless you can wire the pin in place. With the motion of the rigging while under sail the screw pin can un-screw itself.
Matt Haberman
Aquarius Sail Inc.
http://www.aquarius-sail.com
drjay
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Posts: 10
Joined: June 19th, 2014, 8:15 am
Boat Make/Model: ARC 17

Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by drjay »

I appreciate the reply , Matt.

I install the pin and split ring as follows:

After stepping mast with the gin pole I stand on the tongue of trailer and inset pin from back to front, in other words the pin ends up protruding in a forward direction. I than obviously attach the ring.

Now when i do this the long axis of the pin is parallel to the hulls so i suppose there is some pressure on the ring. Now if the forestay chainplate(correct terminology?) were aligned 90 degrees from how it is currently the pin would insert and run perpendicular to the hulls and as a result there would I imagine be less pressure on the ring. Hope I am being clear on this point. Am I missing something here? The pressure is significant because when i go to unstep the mast after attaching gin pole it is still quite a chore to work the pin loose. I considered relieving pressure on the shrouds (side stay) to step and unstep but not sure how difficult it is to retention these stays solo after attachment of forestay.

I'll run this by Dad Haberman next time we talk which is frequently due to my many questions. I hope he does not change to an unlisted number
DanBerger
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Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by DanBerger »

OK, sounds like you are doing it wrong and over thinking it.

You should release at least one of the hayfield levers to step and de-step your mast. That takes all the pressure off the bridle/forestay adjuster plate and pin. Once you have the mast up, close the lever and your rig should be tight and ready to go. You're working against yourself if you leave them tight.

Also, I hope you are using your trapeze wires to stabilize the mast when stepping and unstopping. I tied them to the beam as far out as I could go towards the hulls. This kept the mast from swinging to either side while the rig is loose.

Now, on the pins and rings--The pins are incredibly strong and have a ridiculous sheer strength. I have never heard of a pin failing, usually the ring falls out somehow and the pin works its way out. There should never be any force on the ring except maybe a (very) little bit if it is pushed up against the adjuster or whatever the pin is through. Typically, the rings are damaged when they catch on something and it pulls them out of shape, then, they get pulled out of the pin and you have a disaster.

Tom's suggestion about rigging tape is right on. I use white electrical tape because I'm constantly replacing it. I also keep my boat on the beach with the mast up. I use white tape because the black stuff gets sticky (in the saltwater and sun) and that mess gets on EVERYTHING. Once you get the pins set with rings, wrap them with tape. EVERY TIME. If you are only going out for an hour, or doing a distance race, always tape your pins.
drjay
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Boat Make/Model: ARC 17

Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by drjay »

DanBerger wrote:OK, sounds like you are doing it wrong and over thinking it.

You should release at least one of the hayfield levers to step and de-step your mast. That takes all the pressure off the bridle/forestay adjuster plate and pin. Once you have the mast up, close the lever and your rig should be tight and ready to go. You're working against yourself if you leave them tight.

Also, I hope you are using your trapeze wires to stabilize the mast when stepping and unstopping. I tied them to the beam as far out as I could go towards the hulls. This kept the mast from swinging to either side while the rig is loose.

Now, on the pins and rings--The pins are incredibly strong and have a ridiculous sheer strength. I have never heard of a pin failing, usually the ring falls out somehow and the pin works its way out. There should never be any force on the ring except maybe a (very) little bit if it is pushed up against the adjuster or whatever the pin is through. Typically, the rings are damaged when they catch on something and it pulls them out of shape, then, they get pulled out of the pin and you have a disaster.

Tom's suggestion about rigging tape is right on. I use white electrical tape because I'm constantly replacing it. I also keep my boat on the beach with the mast up. I use white tape because the black stuff gets sticky (in the saltwater and sun) and that mess gets on EVERYTHING. Once you get the pins set with rings, wrap them with tape. EVERY TIME. If you are only going out for an hour, or doing a distance race, always tape your pins.
Thanks for the reply.

Hayfield lever? is this the righting system lever? If so and i open a lever on one side hoe far to the closed lever will the mast swing?

Right now I do tie off the forward trap lines to lines I have on the forward beam.

If i make them too tight I need to loosen as i step because as the mast comes up these trap wires are under great tension.

if I leave them loose the mast swings to much

i guess there is a happy medium ?

Likewise if I open a lever as you suggest to make pinning forestay easier I imagine the trap line on the side of the open lever requires less slack as the open lever provides lots of slack.

Any downside to opening both levers to pin forestay? That way i could have same amount of tension going to each trap wire?

Oh yes,lastly, any preference as far as inserting pin for forestay? head of pin facing forward or aft or just personal preference
Matt Haberman
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Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by Matt Haberman »

Any downside to opening both levers to pin forestay? That way i could have same amount of tension going to each trap wire?

Oh yes,lastly, any preference as far as inserting pin for forestay? head of pin facing forward or aft or just personal preference
Jay,

Don't open both levers at the same time. The mast will be able to lean too far forward and will cause damage to the mast base, pedestal/post and the mast keeper pin.

My preference is to insert the pin w/ the head facing forward and the ring on the back side. It is less prone to snagging the ring, especially if your flying a spinnaker.
Matt Haberman
Aquarius Sail Inc.
http://www.aquarius-sail.com
drjay
Novice
Posts: 10
Joined: June 19th, 2014, 8:15 am
Boat Make/Model: ARC 17

Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by drjay »

Matt Haberman wrote:
Any downside to opening both levers to pin forestay? That way i could have same amount of tension going to each trap wire?

Oh yes,lastly, any preference as far as inserting pin for forestay? head of pin facing forward or aft or just personal preference
Jay,

Don't open both levers at the same time. The mast will be able to lean too far forward and will cause damage to the mast base, pedestal/post and the mast keeper pin.

My preference is to insert the pin w/ the head facing forward and the ring on the back side. It is less prone to snagging the ring, especially if your flying a spinnaker.
Thank you.
This weekend I will practice stepping/unstepping with some help just in case. I imagine after 15-20 repetitions I should be more comfortable
DanBerger
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Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by DanBerger »

Great point about the ring on the back side of the adjuster when running a spinnaker. Don't forget to tape it off, too.
DanBerger
Professional
Posts: 280
Joined: May 3rd, 2004, 3:29 pm
Boat Make/Model: SC 15 w/ spin!, SC 19
Location: Norfolk, VA

Re: Forestay Attachment Point

Post by DanBerger »

Another thing on stepping your mast with the trapeze wires--Bill taught me a cool trick.

He tied a line to the trapeze ring that was about 3 feet long. Yours might need to be longer depending on your boat, but you should get a good idea of the needed length after the next few paragraphs. He wrapped it around the front beam to tie the trapeze line to the beam and put it as far outward on the beam as possible. You only wrap it 4 or 5 times, then tie off the end somewhere so it doesn't slip.

So, when you are stepping the mast, run the line to the front of the beam, under and over the back then repeat so you wrap it a few times. When you raise the mast, it unwraps the line a little bit, so it releases some of the tension. It isn't enough to lose control of the mast, but it makes it more controllable. I think that was your problem before when you had to readjust the tension on the trap wires.

When you lower the mast, wrap the line the opposite way, run it under the beam and over the front, repeat.

I also used my beach wheels to step the mast on my old 20 (Bill's old 20). I had eyelets bolted into the wheel crossbar as far out as I could on the inside of the wheels. I think Bill did this, I don't remember, I don't want to take credit for it. I've had too many boats to remember the tricks I found or the ones that came with the boat.

Anyway, the eyelets had wires attached to them that came together about a foot off the crossbar. I attached my blocks to the two eyelets (making a kind of bridle) and then attached the top blocks to the gin pole. I centered the cradles under the bridles. Made for a really easy stepping when the boat was off the trailer.

I don't know if that is obvious or not, it is just another way to step the mast.
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