Scaled down for the masses?

[havliii]

coming soon to your local dealer ............. some assembly required................
and a whole lotta coin.

[Bill Roberts]

And what do you do with this Stratovarious Violin during the week while you are at work? The wing and platform must be protected from the wind, squalls, and rain and sun during the week. The boat must be kept in a building during the week, non sailing time. So you buy the boat and then a piece of property on the water and then build a multistory building to house the boat in while it is not sailing. Yes, this boat is going to cost very much indeed.
To top that off, you can't go fishing from it, you can't take the wife and kids for a picnic on it, you wouldn't go scuba diving from it. I guess this boat is a total racing boat only.

[havliii]

And what do you do with this Stratovarious Violin during the week while you are at work?

WORK? if that's my boat, I probably don't have to work! .......... but so ya know I am in total agreement. We humans are funny critters, we build some pretty useless stuff however there will be something good that will trickle down from all of the research to build this thing.

and so it goes..........

[Bill Roberts]

I don't see much trickle down from the AC boats. Using foils is trickle up from the Trifoiler and the Rave and the Moth. Sailing with wings is trickle up from the C class cats. So far I think the big difference is that we can see these big boats sail on TV. Other than that most of us never saw a wing on a sailboat before or saw a sailboat go foil born. Seeing it function is what is new. The technology is not so new.
Question of the day: Why did the Trifoiler and the Rave not grow into big classes?

[Bruiser]

Question of the day: Why did the Trifoiler and the Rave not grow into big classes?

Here is my observation as to the trifoiler performance and most likely the everyday difficulties of any foiling boat. Wind. A certain minimum boat speed is needed in order to get up on a foil. That takes either ideal wind or a direction of sail (a reach) that generally never lines up with actual race day. The races I have been in where a trifoiler had signed up, ended up being light air days. The boat could not get up on the foils and was very slow when not up on the foils. From a practical standpoint, they can not perform in 90% of the conditions faced by most of us.

That said I have not seen a Moth try against other boat designs, but may also suffer from the same issues. They work in one design races as all boats have to endure the same conditions. However next to multihulls in light air, they may not look so attractive.

I think the big step for the everyday folks will be if someone comes up with a way to deploy foils when they might be helpful. First half of the race sailed conventionally and then as the wind pipes up and we are smoking along, deploy the foils for after burner speed.

Just a thought anyway.

[Bill Roberts]

Novice,
I think those are pretty accurate thoughts. Those foil boats, Trifoiler and Rave, were a compromise between cost and performance and you see what we got; a foil boat that would fly in exact conditions, like 10% of the time you went sailing or tried to go sailing. Well how do you fix that? ANS: Cut the weight in half. How do you do that? Exchange the Al tube frame for carbon and exchange the roto molded Plastic hull parts for carbon autoclave parts. What happens to performance? The boat could fly 50% of the time it went out instead of 10%. What happened to boat cost? It went from a $20,000 dollar boat to a $100,000 boat or more. What happened to sales? They sold two or three boats to someone like a prince in Saudia Arabia.

Reverse engineering: What can we learn from the picture. The wind driven waves seem to be coming off the rear quarter, wind direction. There are no white caps, therefore wind is less than 12 knts but not by much, probbably near 10knts. The wing trim tells us that the boat is on a relative wind close reach. Relative wind slightly in front of abeam. How fast is it going? What is the maximum spray height in the picture. Look at the leeward daggerboard. The water is stagnated on the nose of the DB and climbs to a height proportional to the square of the speed of the boat. We can see the max spray height flowing off the trailing edge of the DB. The spray max height looks to be about 3ft high.

Potential Energy of the spray = Kinetic Energy of the boat = Water density X vel**2/ 2 x g
If the spray height is 2ft high, boat vel = 11.3ft/sec
If the spray height is 3ft high, boat vel = 13.9ft/sec
If the spray height is 4ft high, boat vel = 16.0ft/sec

Conclusion: Boat is sailing in a true wind speed breeze of about 17 ft/sec and it is reaching a boat speed of about 14ft/sec.
In a 11.6 mph breeze the boat is going 9.5 mph.
Or being very generous we could say the spray height is 4ft and the boat is going 16ft/sec = 10.9mph.
These are back of the envelop numbers, very simple calculations based on what we can see in a picture and estimating spray height.
Being very generous we could say the boat is going about the same speed as the true wind on a reach.
A Tornado will do that and some other beach cats also.
So far this thing hasn't blown my skirt up.

I would hope the boat was going at least 1.5 times the speed of the wind. Maybe it needs a gennaker in these light wind conditions.

What do you think guys and girls?

[havliii]

Imagination is what makes new and exciting things happen, I cannot look at the image of that sail craft and not be awed by the imagination that it took to make it 'real.' The basic elements may be old stuff (wings sails, foils, carbon fiber, etc) but the imagination that brought the boat into 'being' is where the jump is.

Would I own one? no. Would I like to sail one? no, not really. Am I impressed? Hell, yes, the boat is a 'work of art' on water. Beauty, as always, 'is in the eye of the beholder.'

[Bill Roberts]

havliii,
I don't see much imigination. What I do see is a small size copy of the AC boats. I see a ton of work, no I see tons of work, especially to produce a small size version of the AC boats in such a short period of time. Tons of money were also spent. I applaud the effort. It is a beautiful thing. It is state of the art. But it is a copy of the ideas already shown and demonstrated in the AC boats.

I went to a race in California once and an 18 square meter boat was there named Wild Turkey. It belonged to Craig Riley. It was very light weight and It was powered by a wing. It was very beautiful. It ran off and left us all in the races. One thing I noticed about the boat was that a couple of car loads of people came with the boat. There were maybe six or eight people who were ground crew and boat assembly people. The boat and wing came in a long covered trailer. First a boat/hull/platform assembly jig was put together on flat and level ground. Then the hulls and beams were put in place on this assembly jig and things bolted together. Next the hulls were rotated in this jig into a vertical position as the boat would be if turned over while sailing. Now the wing came out of the trailer being carried by several people and it was attached to the vertical hull platform, wing horrizontal, along with shrouds and forestays. The next step was to carefully rotate the assembled boat back into the upright position. All this time the boat was in this platform jig which had this rotating capability built into it. To put the boat in the water it was carried by several people who walked out into the water up to their shoulders. Then the skipper climed on board and sailed away. When we all sailed in for lunch, the wing powered boat was waiting for us and it was sitting on/in its assembly jig. During the lunch break the wind picked up a little and the wing boat team decided the boat should be turned on its side to get the wing somewhat out of the increasing wind. In this position the wing lay in a padded cradle made for it. That night the wing was put back in the trailer. Some of the road crew people stayed with the boat overnight to ensure that the boat was not harmed overnight. The next morning the wing was installed and racing continued. I explain all of this because this is the way it is or would be or will be with wing powered catamarans. Also autoclave hulls are fragile. The two M20s here in S Fl have received their worst dings/hull damage while going on and off the trailer.
To some sailors these wing powered boats with autoclave hulls are their best dream but the reality of the dream is a totally different story.

[fjviola]

In reading Bill's thorough description of the support required to 'wing' Wild Turkey so it could actually depart terra-firma for an afternoon of 'fun' on the water, I am reminded of NASA's colossally ill-conceived shuttle program that did nothing to advance space exploration since 1969.

Sexy? Absolutely. Expensive? Astronomical. High maintenance? Now defunct. Functional? Like a 'flying brick' .. as it was so often described.

Along with 'NZ AC72 - What I Saw Today', this thread also reminds me of what Waylon Jennings said to Willie Nelson a few years before his death: "We would not be country and western stars today if we had to rely on our Looks."



franklin VIOLA

[Bill Roberts]

franklin,
Wild Turker showed us the way in 1981. The boat was taken to several regattas in California. It showed us a lower cost C class boat. Why aren't there wing powered 18 square meter boats around? I guess we really didn't want'em. Instead we have got $30,000.00 A class boats that go obsolete as soon as a different design wins the Worlds.
Here's a comment from a "world class" A cat sailor. "These new downward sloping foredecks and reverse sloped bows have made the boat a whole lot harder to sail downwind and I don't see that they are any faster to windward".
Years ago I saw that Wild Turkey was for sale in Multihulls Magazine. I saw the add month after month after month after month. The boat did not sell like a hot item.

[fjviola]

Bill

I am not sure we 'did Not want' wing powered cats, rather I suspect the masses simply were never 'Educated' as to the value of their function. I have been a scuba instructor since '86, and traveled the world as a professional u/w photographer (magazines, textbooks, etc). Beginning in the mid-90's I no longer could purchase a Hi-Visibility BCD (orange, red or yellow) because the industry decided 'black' fabric was cheaper and did not fade as fast. My argument that the BCD evolved from naval aviator 'survival vests' (orange or yellow) fell on deaf ears because black also became more 'fashionable' (Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, etc). Within a few years, uneducated 'new' divers (consumers) simply did Not know to question, "Shouldn't my BCD be a bright color (instead of UDT black) so my ass can be found if all goes to Hell?!"

Same goes today when we find a 'neat' product at Home Depot or Lowes that 'really' works, only to be frustrated six months later when the product is no longer on the shelf because quota's did not move fast enough and the item is no longer stocked. We 'experienced' consumers assumed Everyone would 'see the value'. Unfortunately sellers no longer 'teach' consumers as they are merely order takers.

While I am not privy (nor should I be) to the 'business' dealings of Supercat, it is evident Boston Whaler dropped the ball (or perhaps never 'understood' the ball) and therefore Supercat never realized its potential beach cat market share. Without question SC/ARC's proven design (even compared to today's 'successfully marketed' downward sloping foredecks and reverse sloped bows) is Superior, especially when sea conditions approach that of a washing machine. But at days end, market share drives design ... and not always the Better design (VHS vs Beta, USB vs Firewire, Black BCD's vs Hi-Visibility I want my ass found ORANGE).

The real disappointment in multihulls (my humble opinion) is the demise of the 'life-style' that catamaran pioneers (you, Alter, etc) created and grew to prominence in the 80's/90's!

Our plates (especially us Yanks) are so overloaded that instead of making time to 'learn' an activity, we instead glutton ourselves on the bloated transfat-saturated buffet. Does not anyone realize the original SC designer as well as the current ARC crafter (both with protical sons) are still alive, and most likely are physically approachable to 'educate' cat sailors on the performance 'subtleties and tricks' honed from thousands of sailing hours if only one was to make a road trip (with advance notice of course) to S. Florida or the Frozen Tundra (sorry Tom, was too easy a set-up .. LOL). No one seeks out Masters anymore in person like an apprentice hungry for knowledge. Rather, we believe full-on veteran skills can be achieved via electronic chatting while hiding our deficiences though anonomous CB-handles instead of signing our real name.

Bill, your designs are 'Fantastic'. Everyone I take out on my SC 17 and ARC 21 says, "This cat fits me!". It appears Supercats simply got pushed off grocery shelves by diet Coke and Pepsi lite. So now, potential 'new' multi-hull consumers are being 'taught' that winged-catamaran designs super-funded by a software billionaire (whose proven business practice is to hire foreign mercenaries instead of supporting 'local' craftsmen because the masses and investors care only about winning NOW) are the future ... that is, until they look at the price tag!

franklin VIOLA

[SC15Av8or]

WOW....way to go Commodore !!!

[havliii]

I am not sure we 'did Not want' wing powered cats, rather I suspect the masses simply were never 'Educated' as to the value of their function. I have been a scuba instructor since '86, and traveled the world as a professional u/w photographer (magazines, textbooks, etc). Beginning in the mid-90's I no longer could purchase a Hi-Visibility BCD (orange, red or yellow) because the industry decided 'black' fabric was cheaper and did not fade as fast. My argument that the BCD evolved from naval aviator 'survival vests' (orange or yellow) fell on deaf ears because black also became more 'fashionable' (Mercedes Benz, BMW, Porsche, etc). Within a few years, uneducated 'new' divers (consumers) simply did Not know to question, "Shouldn't my BCD be a bright color (instead of UDT black) so my ass can be found if all goes to Hell?!"

Great post Franklin! I have personally experienced that very phenomena that you describe, when 'great product design' is obliterated by poor design because the better design can't gain traction in the marketplace. It is painful to watch and experience. The masses move in a herd as if they were on a giant Ouija board, the forces moving them are the domain of the 'marketeers and ad-men.'

[fjviola]

Thanks Havliii
Since this thread has gone completely off the reservation (my fault), I ah reckon it is OK to shoot one more arrow into Custer (Cherokee heritage is in my genes) by offering these 'opinions' to those who may listen:

What is wrong with the world?
"I am"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYtfnONazTU

What can we do about it?
"Take someone Sailing on a Catamaran to Feel wind Sing"
is a pretty good start

Encourage every high school kid and every college kid to read:
"Let my people go Surfing"
http://www.patagonia.com/us/patagonia.go?assetid=5625

Thanks
franklin VIOLA

[DanBerger]

My two cents--Look at what happened to Betamax vs VHS. Betamax was WAY better, but VHS was just marketed better.


Now, for the serious stuff.

The wing sails are pretty cool, but not for everyone. I personally hope beachcats DO NOT go to them because they are a pain in the neck, as described by Bill's 18 Square story. Someone had one on an A cat and it was cool--but it no longer was able to be set up single-handed.

And foiling? JUST SAY NO!! The A cat fleet is an arms race as it is. As soon as some new thing comes along, everyone with an older boat goes to the back of the fleet. You couldn't compete without canted straight boards. So all the boats went that way. Then, curved lifting boards came out. I just spent 5,000 friggin bucks on a set for my old A cat and I'm now back up to the middle of the fleet. Then, 'bendy masts' came out wich required a new cut for the main. Then, we could trap downwind which was 5% faster. Now, rudder winglets are all the rage. $30-35,000 for this year's competitive boat?

If they somehow figure out foiling, I'm done. It just isn't fun anymore.

I owned a Rave for a very little while and managed to get foiling once for a few seconds. Now THAT was pretty cool, but the boat was, again, a pain in the neck to put together and it took a lot of space on the dock and it was impossible to move in the sand. But, this boat was designed to foil, so you knew what you were getting into.

This is why I love my 15. It is simple. We don't need all this technocrap!