Another Righting Thread!

[fjviola]

Kevin
What is your opinion of the 'quality' (fabric and stitching) of the Lindy "Drift Control" Drift Sock you have?
http://www.wholesalemarine.com/lindy-dr ... -sock.html

I bought some 6mm FSE Robline Racing Sheet (no core vs 'pro' racing sheet w/core) on Friday's West Marine bulk rope sale to use as a sea anchor 'rode'. I use this same line on my adjustable trap system as it is very soft and easy to cleat/uncleat, yet very strong. Description: Wear-resistant plaited design is made of Dyneema SK-75 and impregnated nylon in a single braid construction. It's extremely low-stretch, abrasion-resistant, resists kinking, is easy to handle and easy to splice. 2420 lbs breaking strength.

I have made my own sea anchors in the past for smaller boats, but reckon a professionally made 'safety item' is worth the investment for my ARC 21.

Thanks!

franklin VIOLA

[Kevin Keller]

Franklin,

I don't have it in front of me but I think the quality was good. I have had it for a couple of years and although I haven't pulled it out often it seems in new shape. I doubt you would ever have a problem with it.

In light of Bill suggesting a 72" sea anchor, maybe I will get their largest of 60". If that doesn't work maybe I can hook them up in series and that should do the trick. When I sailing next maybe I will flip the boat and try my 50" and see how it does.

I used the Amsteel 1/4" for trap lines and am very happy with it. I have a separate adjuster. Post pictures of your adjuster set-up if you could and I will post mine next chance I get to the boat. I also am using Dynex Dux 5mm for my forestay and shrouds. I am pretty happy with it especially when it comes to people flying around the boat on the traps and not scrubbing on the sails.. I can make it myself and not have to pay the local rigger outrageous amounts to make new rigging.

Kevin

[fjviola]

Kevin
I think your 50" Lindy "Drift Control" Drift Sock should work fine as our cats are no where near the weight prescribed for a 20ft boat in sizing sea anchors. However, the windage of our sails laying in the water and then being 'power-righted' may prove me wrong. I too need to flip my cat over (near the beach and with some friends close by) and apply Bill's procedure so we won't get caught fumbling to near exhaustion in open ocean

Here is the link/thread to my adjustable trap lines.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=644

I have replaced the wire Can't Miss Rings with 3" ss-rings, and re-configured the adjustable hook-up so that it is now 4:1 (vs 3:1). It is amazing how I can feel subtle changes in stability when I ask my crew "can you give me 4 inches -or- how about 6 inches" closer to horizontal out on the wire. The non-core Robline racing sheet makes it extremely easy to cleat/uncleat. Which is important as me and my crew are not AC sailors so we are always 'learning'

I have only had the ARC21 to 20 knots and there has been no banjo-ing of the Dyneema trap lines. However, my 'handles' are larger and easier to grip so they 'will' create vibration (windage) as our speed increases. At that point it will be a choice of comfort vs function

Kevin, your use of Dynex Dux 5mm for forestay and shrouds is quite interesting! An ARC22 sailor in our group has replaced all of his standing rigging with Dyneema (or other) as well. Being a 'tinker-er' myself I have toyed with the idea of running ss-wire (stay, shrouds, bridles) through the 'inside' of hollow-core Dyneema as a 'back-up' system. Many of the GT300 racers have dual-rigging security for the long offshore event. My thought of ss 'inside' Dyneema is to make it 'cleaner'.

I'd welcome any comments from the forum on this idea!

Thanks again Kevin .. and please let us know when you will be hosting the forum for an SC/ARC regatta at your house (Honolulu!)

franklin VIOLA

[SC15Av8or]

You need bigger crew. I have to hand it to Bill with his righting system. I do not struggle getting the 15 or 19 up as much as I did a H14T.

[Bill Roberts]

The factory/class system works all the time. The drogue chute takes a good breeze to make the boat move across the water, turned over, to inflate the chute. Then it works fine. The factory system works fine all the time.
When you first get a cat, turning over is part of the learning process. Go sailing one sunny, windy day and practice righting your boat. Go sailing with a person experienced with the system and they can coach you. Before you go out to try the system, check that the Avibank pins work. They might need a drop of oil. Be sure your mast is water tight, especially at the top and hounds. You also might want to have a power boat escort along just in case, just in case. Plan your righting procedure. Who is going to do what and when?????

[fjviola]

Bill

The few times we have flipped the ARC21, opening the Shroud Extenders 'only' (not using the wire extenders) was all that was required to right her. The 'factory system' is as advertised .. 'Excellent'! Climbing back on , however, (as Kevin wrote at the beginning of this thread) was the hard part.

Would any undue stress be put on the mast stepping base/ball if the Power Righting technique is tried with
a. Shroud Extenders open only?
b. Wire Extenders also deployed?

Getting the bows to rotate into the wind and mast perpendicular would require one sailor to stand on the in-water bow, while other sailor was ready to climb aboard on the mainsheet .. I think?

I do have a Avibank pin on my port rudder arm/tiller connection (stern where the ARC21 is lowest to the water), so I have climbed aboard there. Trailing 'life-lines' under/behind the trampoline make this maneuver more 'comfortable/secure' as now we are at the back of the boat.

Thanks for all your sage advice!

franklin VIOLA

[Bill Roberts]

Franklin,
The shroud levers extend the shroud about 3". This is not enough to make the boat easier to right. An 8.5ft wide boat doesn't need any special righting system other than a righting line and 300 pounds, two people, pulling on the righting lime at first. (The levers and shroud extenders are needed for one person righting.) The greatest torque required for righting is the initial torque to get the mast and sails out of the water. As soon as the upper hull crosses the fulcrum point, the CB of the hull in the water, the required righting torque decreases rapidly.
The shroud lever/shroud extension system is designed to pull a wet sail and mast out of the water. As soon as the boat comes up, the non extended shroud is loaded and the extended shroud is slack. Don't ever try to sail or load the extended shroud with sail loads.
What is "Power Righting Technique"? I have never heard of this.
To get a boat to spin around, hulls parallel to the wind, requires a center of drag at the bow. There is no difference in center of hull drag with two persons standing together at mid hull length or two persons standing at the extreme ends of the boat. The hull drag doesn't know/feel the difference.
The easy way to be on top of the boat when the boat starts coming up is for one person to move to a point just in front of the main beam on the inside side of the hull facing aft. As the boat comes up swing your upper leg over the hull and hold onto the main beam/tramp.
In an instant you are on top of the boat and all you did was swing your leg over the hull as the hull rotated 90 degrees underneath you.
I guess this is an old cowboy stunt.
The first person back on the tramp should grab the tiller and push/hold the helm down to keep the bows somewhat into the wind and sails luffing. This will keep the extended shroud from becoming loaded and it will minimise boat speed for the other person still in the water and needing to climb back onto the boat.
An experienced racing and righting team can turnover and right the boat and be back in the race in less than 5 minutes. Turning over does not have to put you out of the race on a SC or ARC or RC product. It is also much much much safer.

[Kevin Keller]

Kevin
I think your 50" Lindy "Drift Control" Drift Sock should work fine as our cats are no where near the weight prescribed for a 20ft boat in sizing sea anchors. However, the windage of our sails laying in the water and then being 'power-righted' may prove me wrong. I too need to flip my cat over (near the beach and with some friends close by) and apply Bill's procedure so we won't get caught fumbling to near exhaustion in open ocean

The 50" will slow down the boat but will it slow it enough to keep the mast/sail in the correct direction, that is the question. The leach of the sail when going backward will dig into the water and act as a huge brake. and swing it in to the wind. That is what I need to find out.

Interesting idea to wrap the wire shrouds with Dyneema. I guess you would never have to worry about creep then and have a nice backup. I am pretty confident in my Dynex not breaking, you can see the condition of the rope. It is stronger than needs to be as is. If you do it post some pics.

When I was talking about climbing on my boat, I meant climbing up my trampoline to get to the upper hull, since my boat is 12 feet wide you need some way of getting up there. Actually getting on the tramp when the boat is righting itself is not a problem.

A SC/ARC Regatta at my place would be a great idea. Just need some more ARC's out here in HNL!

Kevin

[Bill Roberts]

Kevin,
Check with Tom and ask him how to reach the levers on a 12ft wide SC turned over.
Bill

[Kevin Keller]

Bill,
I was hoping either Tom or Matt were going to respond to my post.
Kevin

[Bill Roberts]

Kevin,
Tom and Matt sail a 22 all the time. It has a front tramp and a spin pole. How do they get to the levers?
I don't know. Matt is tall but I don't think he can reach the levers from the bottom hull.

[J Drew]

Kevin,
Matt explains it on an earlier post labeled "ladder"
It's about the middle of pg 3

[Bill Roberts]

Kevin,
There should be a rope ladder built onto the bottom of the trampoline for climbing up to the upper hull and then a slot to reach through the tramp to get to the lever. Eric and I have a 22. No ladder and no slot????? I guess that means we are not allowed to turn over--------
problem solved.

[Matt Haberman]

Kevin,

Sorry for the delay, I missed your question when you originally posted it.

First off I like Bill's solution of not tipping over

It has been a few years since I have tipped over on the 22 and overall I haven't done it that many times, but every time I have climbed up on top to release the lever. The front tramp makes things a bit tricky. What I have done is climb up the "top side" of the tramp by using the tramp lacing under the bags. I also seem to remember climbing up the tramp lacing on the underside, and then climbing around the front tramp and standing on the mast base, but honestly it has been so long that I don't exactly recall how I did that. If you don't have a front tramp it is not a big issue as you can climb up the tramp lacing on the under side and then just swing around when you get your foot to the mast base.

[Kevin Keller]

Thanks Matt,

Flipping is so much fun!

I guess the eye straps I put on end up cutting the lacing if I step on them so I will have to figure out how to prevent that from happening.

Bill, the new tramps don't have the ladder or the cutout to reach through. I kind of like the ladder though. I guess Tom was saying he got his arm stuck in the cutout one time. Looked kind of hard to use anyway.

Kevin