Another good reason to avoid a collision.
Both boats were on port when the Hobie 20 decided to tack unexpectidly. The 22 tried to head down but didn't quite miss the transom as you can see. The only damage suffered by the 22 is the superficial paint damage shown, and the Hobie 20, well you can see that too.
Port-Starboard? Crunch....
-
Matt Haberman
- Administrator
- Posts: 602
- Joined: November 10th, 2003, 8:22 pm
- Location: Minnesota
- Contact:
Port-Starboard? Crunch....
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-
thommerrill
- Professional
- Posts: 113
- Joined: November 23rd, 2003, 9:15 pm
- Boat Make/Model: ARC22,FMS20,F25c
- Location: Dallas, Tx
That would be the strongest point [22 bow] to weakest point [aft stern corner/side].
Once on my 1980 FMS 20; an H16 tacked in front of me in a channel and went into irons...almost no room but alot of wind. i hauled in the main and flew over its rear quarter. Did get my high rudder kicked up on the H16 mainsail after my daggerboard clipped /sliced the same main. It was a bit of a bump but moved the main to the low side of the H16.
When the H16 skipper said I was at fault for not avoiding a collision....I said" I don't know how to put this boat into irons. It just keeps going no matter what gets in the way" I made no effert to pay any compensation because there was no choice... it wa either go through or over the top!!!
Matt's right though. No sense scratching a 22 with some other boat...
Once on my 1980 FMS 20; an H16 tacked in front of me in a channel and went into irons...almost no room but alot of wind. i hauled in the main and flew over its rear quarter. Did get my high rudder kicked up on the H16 mainsail after my daggerboard clipped /sliced the same main. It was a bit of a bump but moved the main to the low side of the H16.
When the H16 skipper said I was at fault for not avoiding a collision....I said" I don't know how to put this boat into irons. It just keeps going no matter what gets in the way" I made no effert to pay any compensation because there was no choice... it wa either go through or over the top!!!
Matt's right though. No sense scratching a 22 with some other boat...
thommerrill
F25c 009 - Charisma
FMS 20 57 - newly faired and painted with Awlgrip -For Sale
F25c 009 - Charisma
FMS 20 57 - newly faired and painted with Awlgrip -For Sale
-
Eric2101
- Professional
- Posts: 205
- Joined: August 16th, 2004, 5:42 am
- Boat Make/Model: Supercat 15
- Location: Davie, FL.
Frankenstein
I have a trashed H-20 in my yard that has a good port transom. Can it be transplanted to the hull in the pic? 
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Eric Arbogast
Supercat 15
Supercat 15
-
thommerrill
- Professional
- Posts: 113
- Joined: November 23rd, 2003, 9:15 pm
- Boat Make/Model: ARC22,FMS20,F25c
- Location: Dallas, Tx
Thats a question for Tom I think. I know I had a 1966 Corvette that had a partial rear quarter glued off a wreck. It worked fine for another 60,000 miles. I asked how long it would stay and the shop guy said" until the next time you knock it off"...
From the looks of the pic its a pretty simple fix for a pro.
From the looks of the pic its a pretty simple fix for a pro.
thommerrill
F25c 009 - Charisma
FMS 20 57 - newly faired and painted with Awlgrip -For Sale
F25c 009 - Charisma
FMS 20 57 - newly faired and painted with Awlgrip -For Sale
-
Bill Roberts
- Expert
- Posts: 515
- Joined: November 17th, 2003, 9:13 pm
- Location: Stuart, Florida
A Sailing 101 Lesson
Hi Guys,
This lesson has nothing to do with the above situation but the situation does remind me of something not many sailors know.
>>> When sailing to windward and you have to bear off instantly, the boat will do so only if you dump the mainsheet and take all the load off the rudders at the same time as you jerk the helm to windward. If you don't dump the mainsheet, the boat will only bear off slowly or the rudders may stall and the boat will not bear off at all. Practice this some when you are out sailing by yourself; no other boats involved. The difference in the quickness of being able to bear off will surprise you.
Bill
This lesson has nothing to do with the above situation but the situation does remind me of something not many sailors know.
>>> When sailing to windward and you have to bear off instantly, the boat will do so only if you dump the mainsheet and take all the load off the rudders at the same time as you jerk the helm to windward. If you don't dump the mainsheet, the boat will only bear off slowly or the rudders may stall and the boat will not bear off at all. Practice this some when you are out sailing by yourself; no other boats involved. The difference in the quickness of being able to bear off will surprise you.
Bill
-
RobLyman
- Novice
- Posts: 11
- Joined: November 28th, 2003, 1:29 pm
- Boat Make/Model: RC-27, ARC-22
- Location: Jacksonville, FL
Bill,
You are 100% correct. I just wonder how much the fear of clearing the transom horizontally with your boat but hitting it with your body (or that of your crew) after being dunked in the water off the wire as a result of dumping the mainsheet comes into play. In most cases, I would bet it is a matter of instinct/built-in reactions overriding common sense.
Think about it. You are cruising along 1,2 or 3 up on the wire when a boat appears under the main or through a window in the jib. Do you dump the main, sending everyone accelerating downward, turning away from the opposing boat on the outside radius of the turn, in effect accelerating your BODY towards a faster impact? Or do you react by easing the sheet, flying a hull to maintain your vertical clearance with the oncoming boat and reducing the outside radius acceleration you would experience by a really sharp turn?
Kind of like dropping a bowling ball on your foot to fend off a ping pong ball thrown at your eye. Or maybe it is like being a squirrel trying to dodge a car. Do I run faster to clear the car or stop, turn around and go back? ummm......SMACK!
Practicing to make it feel more natural might help, but I am not sure I could totally dump the main on a really close call. I cringe thinking about being scraped off somoneone's transom when it could have been my bow that took the blow instead.
Maybe that is why Matt and Tom where the football gear sailing????
You are 100% correct. I just wonder how much the fear of clearing the transom horizontally with your boat but hitting it with your body (or that of your crew) after being dunked in the water off the wire as a result of dumping the mainsheet comes into play. In most cases, I would bet it is a matter of instinct/built-in reactions overriding common sense.
Think about it. You are cruising along 1,2 or 3 up on the wire when a boat appears under the main or through a window in the jib. Do you dump the main, sending everyone accelerating downward, turning away from the opposing boat on the outside radius of the turn, in effect accelerating your BODY towards a faster impact? Or do you react by easing the sheet, flying a hull to maintain your vertical clearance with the oncoming boat and reducing the outside radius acceleration you would experience by a really sharp turn?
Kind of like dropping a bowling ball on your foot to fend off a ping pong ball thrown at your eye. Or maybe it is like being a squirrel trying to dodge a car. Do I run faster to clear the car or stop, turn around and go back? ummm......SMACK!
Practicing to make it feel more natural might help, but I am not sure I could totally dump the main on a really close call. I cringe thinking about being scraped off somoneone's transom when it could have been my bow that took the blow instead.
Maybe that is why Matt and Tom where the football gear sailing????
RC-27
ARC-22
Hobie 18
ARC-22
Hobie 18
-
Matt Haberman
- Administrator
- Posts: 602
- Joined: November 10th, 2003, 8:22 pm
- Location: Minnesota
- Contact:
Recognize this transom?
Anyone recognize this transom 
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Matt Haberman on November 2nd, 2004, 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Bill Roberts
- Expert
- Posts: 515
- Joined: November 17th, 2003, 9:13 pm
- Location: Stuart, Florida
Port Starboard Bear Off
Robert,
You are talking like an A cat sailor. When you let the main out on an RC27, everybody doesn't fall in the water. The boat just slows down quickly. The crew is the most likely person to see the potential problem first and therefore is prepared for a quick bear-off if necessary. My advice applies after the skipper has made the decision to bear-off. If the skipper decides to bear-off, then dump the main so he can bear-off. If he doesn't dump the main, then likely he cannot bear-off even if he tries too because the rudders stall and the next happening is WHAM/BANG, "Oh I'm sorry".
In a close call situation like that, the crew should always be ready for an abrupt bear-off. He does this by tensioning the jib sheet to hold himself against the hull, stiffening his front leg and bending his back leg. This is automatic. An inexperienced crew would not know to do this.
As far as football pants go: They are great to sail in especially when it is rough. You can come in off the wire fast and slide across the deck/tramp and no problem. Your knees, your legs and your rear end are all well protected. There are pockets in the knees for extra pads if you want them. The pant material is very elastic. You can make any move you need to, sit,stand, do the splits, squat, jump and the pants do not inhibit your movement. I think they would be perfect on an A cat.
Bill
You are talking like an A cat sailor. When you let the main out on an RC27, everybody doesn't fall in the water. The boat just slows down quickly. The crew is the most likely person to see the potential problem first and therefore is prepared for a quick bear-off if necessary. My advice applies after the skipper has made the decision to bear-off. If the skipper decides to bear-off, then dump the main so he can bear-off. If he doesn't dump the main, then likely he cannot bear-off even if he tries too because the rudders stall and the next happening is WHAM/BANG, "Oh I'm sorry".
In a close call situation like that, the crew should always be ready for an abrupt bear-off. He does this by tensioning the jib sheet to hold himself against the hull, stiffening his front leg and bending his back leg. This is automatic. An inexperienced crew would not know to do this.
As far as football pants go: They are great to sail in especially when it is rough. You can come in off the wire fast and slide across the deck/tramp and no problem. Your knees, your legs and your rear end are all well protected. There are pockets in the knees for extra pads if you want them. The pant material is very elastic. You can make any move you need to, sit,stand, do the splits, squat, jump and the pants do not inhibit your movement. I think they would be perfect on an A cat.
Bill
-
RobLyman
- Novice
- Posts: 11
- Joined: November 28th, 2003, 1:29 pm
- Boat Make/Model: RC-27, ARC-22
- Location: Jacksonville, FL
The comment about the football pants was just in fun.
No, the RC-27 won't fall in the water after letting the main out, but a Hobie 20, with two in the wire, will fall quickly when the main is "eased" quickly. If the opposing boat shows up literally at the last second, "easing" the main becomes "dumping" the main.
My point was that in those very last second situtations, survival instincts probably win out over common sense. This instinct is very much like the instincts of a beginning pilot faced with an engine failure scenario at low altitude. "Pull back on the stick" feels more comfortable. (Or a helicopter pilot who increases collective with an engine failure when he should lower collective.)
Like I said, your advice is right on. I just think that it feels unnatural to do. In flight training, we made the students practice these things repeatedly so that in an emergency, the "right thing" feels more natural.
No, the RC-27 won't fall in the water after letting the main out, but a Hobie 20, with two in the wire, will fall quickly when the main is "eased" quickly. If the opposing boat shows up literally at the last second, "easing" the main becomes "dumping" the main.
My point was that in those very last second situtations, survival instincts probably win out over common sense. This instinct is very much like the instincts of a beginning pilot faced with an engine failure scenario at low altitude. "Pull back on the stick" feels more comfortable. (Or a helicopter pilot who increases collective with an engine failure when he should lower collective.)
Like I said, your advice is right on. I just think that it feels unnatural to do. In flight training, we made the students practice these things repeatedly so that in an emergency, the "right thing" feels more natural.
RC-27
ARC-22
Hobie 18
ARC-22
Hobie 18
-
Bill Roberts
- Expert
- Posts: 515
- Joined: November 17th, 2003, 9:13 pm
- Location: Stuart, Florida
Automatic Reactions
Robert,
You are right in that these automatic reactions in emergency situations must be practiced. If on a boat that will drop the sailors in the water and the skipper must bear off abruptly and dump the main, the sailors, knowing what is happening, will know to swing aft pivoting on their front leg all the way into the side of the boat and lay along the rail. The boat bears off abruptly, clears the transom of the starboard boat and rounds up again as the sailors swing back out into proper position. No problem.
Remember about three years ago when a Hobie on port tack rammed WF Oliver's ARC22 and punched a big hole in it midway between the beams. It was, light air, non trapeze conditions. WF was hailing starboard tack at the Hobie for at least 10 seconds before the collision and you know how WF can hail! The Hobie sailor said he had the helm hard over to bear off but the boat didn't/wouldn't turn. Sailing 101. Guess where he went to sailing school?
One should also practice sailing a sloop rigged boat without rudders. This is how you sail out through the surf into the wind when the rudders have to be up. Learn how to tack without rudders. Learn how to make a sailboat back up with the sails. Learn to steer the boat while backing up.
All of these little things can help greatly in an emergency.
Bill
You are right in that these automatic reactions in emergency situations must be practiced. If on a boat that will drop the sailors in the water and the skipper must bear off abruptly and dump the main, the sailors, knowing what is happening, will know to swing aft pivoting on their front leg all the way into the side of the boat and lay along the rail. The boat bears off abruptly, clears the transom of the starboard boat and rounds up again as the sailors swing back out into proper position. No problem.
Remember about three years ago when a Hobie on port tack rammed WF Oliver's ARC22 and punched a big hole in it midway between the beams. It was, light air, non trapeze conditions. WF was hailing starboard tack at the Hobie for at least 10 seconds before the collision and you know how WF can hail! The Hobie sailor said he had the helm hard over to bear off but the boat didn't/wouldn't turn. Sailing 101. Guess where he went to sailing school?
One should also practice sailing a sloop rigged boat without rudders. This is how you sail out through the surf into the wind when the rudders have to be up. Learn how to tack without rudders. Learn how to make a sailboat back up with the sails. Learn to steer the boat while backing up.
All of these little things can help greatly in an emergency.
Bill