Does anyone (else) have a telescoping 20 that they actually telescope?

[Jonathan Levine]

After I fetched this monster last July from Toronto I dropped by Aquarius on the return trip, and Tom told
me that there were very few - 50 or 60, I think - of the telescoping boats built. George (the PO) kept it at
his club and didn't routinely telescope it, so he just sleeved the gap with sections of plastic pipe, which
was fine. I don't have a permanent beach/club/etc. to keep mine at, so I'll have to build it out every time
I go somewhere. To that end I replaced all of the beam buttons, which is not easy thanks to the cables.
And the new buttons are tight, making stretching it out a bit of a struggle - maybe a spray of McLube or
silicone on the inner tube would be appropriate.

I have what is apparently a very early trailer built by Bill Roberts; it's not the best design to start with, as
it extends out only on the port side and the further out it gets the more that side droops and the boat twists,
making pinning the beams a bit of a fight - especially when it's not on absolutely flat and level ground. So
I have a couple of jackstands under the extended trailer beams; maybe jacks - or even wheels - that swing
down would be a better approach, but still not great. Another problem is that it relies on aluminum rollers,
and over time the rollers obviously got sticky on their shafts, which resulted in the outside of the rollers
developing flat spots so that they're very reluctant to actually roll. If the Trailex trailers expand symmetrically,
I'd love to get my hands on one - but not at twice the price of the boat, plus getting it from there to here (2000
miles).

But are there any other recommendations that experienced 20 telescopers can offer? I'm just now threading
the tramp for the first time, and (working alone) just getting the bolt ropes fed took an hour because of all the
running back and forth. Is it practical to leave it on for trailering, e.g. loosen the fore and aft lacing so they
can scrunch up more easily, or so one half can pass over/under the other? I'm looking for any kind of tips,
tricks, guidance that might speed the assembly of this thing once I get to the lake.

[Matt Haberman]

Jonathan,
It has been a long, long time since I put together a telescoping 20 but we always did the telescoping in the water. Floated the boat off the trailer in the collapsed configuration and then once it was floating we pulled it apart, and put the beam bolts and dolphin striker sleeve in the front beam. At that point, we moved it onto the beach to lace up the tramp, raise the mast, etc.

It is definitely not an easy task and one of the driving reasons the fix beam configuration replaced the telescoping option.

[Jonathan Levine]

Jonathan,
It has been a long, long time since I put together a telescoping 20 but we always did the telescoping in the water. Floated the boat off the trailer in the collapsed configuration and then once it was floating we pulled it apart, and put the beam bolts and dolphin striker sleeve in the front beam. At that point, we moved it onto the beach to lace up the tramp, raise the mast, etc.

It is definitely not an easy task and one of the driving reasons the fix beam configuration replaced the telescoping option.

I get it - a totally different approach. I see two problems with this: First, the new beam buttons are tight, and I really don't know
how feasible it is to telescope it in the water. It sounds like it should be easy, but if there's a lot friction in there I envision five guys
on each side without anything to grab because it's all so damn... elliptical. At least doing it on the trailer means the hulls follow the winch.
The other problem is that I have to be able to do this solo, and that means a gin pole winched from somewhere, and that somewhere has
to be the trailer, unless there's some other magic I'm unaware of.

A search did turn up this thread:

viewtopic.php?p=3834

In which Mr. Roberts discussed telescoping it out. Which was going to lead to my next question: Whether there are any photos of the setup
he describes, esp. with the electric winch(es).

[Jonathan Levine]

I really do need some guidance here, because I'm a pathetic sissyboy who's never had to deal with the realities
of a boat this big (i.e. too wide to trailer).

How do I step the mast?

This wasn't much of a challenge with the SC19; I built a gin pole that holds the (hand) winch, and winch to a lifting
ring bolted through the trailer's center member. Not a big trick there, actually nicked the concept from Dave Farmer.

But in the case of the (old original) port-extending trailer, when it's cranked out to 12' the boat's centerline is off
the trailer at the point where a winch should be mounted (assuming the 7' gin pole that I'm told Aquarius ships).
To be specific, the winch (if it's to be placed directly under the jib furler when everything's up) needs to be about
6" to port of the sloped/triangular/whatever portion of the trailer. Or perhaps that's the wrong way to do it, and
the exact location of the winch (hand or electric) matters less because the winching line should go through a
block attached to the mast stand? But it seems to me that's trouble because it isn't going to pull the mast up
perfectly straight and forward, rather off at an angle (which is bad).

Maybe there's a different way to ask this question, though: Matt, when you expand and rig on the beach, how do
you step the mast without having a hard point to winch to?

Seriously, there must be information or pictures somewhere on how Bill did this on his original trailer, because
I'm kind of stuck at the moment.

(later)

Okay, I went back and again RTFMed, and see the instructions, but they're still really skeletal. There's no mention
in the rope list of suggested length - or routing - for the righting line, or for that matter whether it's supposed to be
secured somewhere in the middle, because otherwise I don't see how it's going to offer any mast-raising-sway
control if it can just slide freely through the dogbones. And the photos are terrible, but I think I can pick my way
through it.

But I also don't have the "large red pulley at the base of the mast carrier" described on p.1 of the manual; the
winch is mounted about 18" above the bottom of the mast stand (measured along the stand, not vertically), and
there are a couple of holes through the stand about 6" below the winch. Should I be putting a block down here?

And it would be helpful to have some idea how closely the modern gin pole resembles the "mast raising bar"
(discussed but not shown).

Finally, as suggested above, I'm completely creeped out by winching from a point that's 2' away from the boat's
centerline. I'm not looking to kill myself or anyone else - or cause grievous damage to the mast, boat, or nearby
property. Please.

[Matt Haberman]

Jonathan,
Your attachment point for pulling the gin pole to raise the mast must be on the centerline of the boat or you are going to have issues.

On the 22 we have a bridle attached to the beach wheel axle. We place the beach wheels under the bows of the boat and secure them with a piece of rope to the attachment point for the bridle wires on the hulls, this keeps the wheels from sliding back as we raise the mast.

Attached to the bridle is the main sheet blocks, with a couple of purchases dropped out of it so we have enough rope to reach the top of the gin pole when the mast is down.

To keep the mast from swinging side to side, we have a couple of short pieces of line attached to the trapeze wires and then tied around the front beam. As you raise or lower the mast you will have to adjust these a bit, but it helps to keep things from swinging out of control.

Ideally, you can have one person on each trapeze wire to help "steer" the mast left to right as you raise it up, or lower it.

Here are a few photos of raising the mast on the 22: https://aquarius-sail.com/catamarans/gi ... index.html

[Jonathan Levine]

Yeah, I understand all that - I have it worked out on my 19, understand the importance of the trapeze wire sway control, etc.
I was sloppy with it once and it cost me a mast base.

I get the advantages of using the cat trax to anchor it, but that assumes a number of luxuries unavailable to me, like anything
but a parking lot and a rocky shore - I'm constantly attempting to sail in new and unpredictable places. I also don't have a
cat trax, and usually can't count on having anyone else around to help.

The thing is, the 20 manual (as well as the old posts from Bill I referenced earlier) - though hard to decipher - strongly suggest
that it can be done with the asymmetric trailer. I had a chat with Tom the other day, though, and it appears that if it can be done,
the knowledge is lost. So I'm going to be improvising an electric winch mounted slightly outboard from the trailer (directly below
where I expect the furler to be when everything's up), and if it works well I'll probably make it official with a well-gussetted chunk
of steel plate or similar. The only obvious downside to that approach is the increased likelyhood of shin/knee damage.

[Jonathan Levine]

Figured it's time for an update. I mounted an electric winch on a chunk of 4"x4" so it was outboard
of the trailer (to port) on the (expanded) boat's centerline and just behind the mast stand. I would
have liked to put it further forward - to increase the pull angle on the gin pole, because much further
back and it just wants to compress the gin pole and bend the mast rather than lift - but that was the
practical limit. Worked okay.

Where I got hornswoggled was on the telescoping. My forward retract wire was already frayed, so
I knew I was on the edge, especially with new beam buttons (bearings), which are tight. As soon
as I started cranking in, that wire blew, and that was the end of my attempt to get it out this (past)
weekend. I took the 19 instead... and there was no damn wind.

So it was time to pull the telescoping tubes out of the trailer. The outer rollers are fine, but the inner
rollers were stuck and dragging, with slight flat spots worn on them. But it's the tubular shafts they
turn on that were in really bad shape. The problem is that there aren't any stops at the starboard
ends of the trailer tubes, so the inner tubes can over-retract just enough for those shafts to protrude past
the ends of the outer tubes, then snag on those ends when trying to extend them again, bending and
mangling the shafts enough to seize the rollers - and making them harder than hell to press out. So I'm
getting the rollers trued and some new shaft stock.

But the asymmetric telescoping remains an awful design, and I think what I'm going to do is rejig it to
extend symmetrically - out 2' each side rather than 4' to port. And I'm going to replace this nasty winch
and wires business with hydraulics.

Incidentally, there was some discussion of it all in this thread on beachcats:

https://www.thebeachcats.com/index.php? ... opic=18442

(Most of) my boat+trailer were owned by 2manyboats1023 (Dan in Rochester). I'd love to get
ahold of waldolakecat (Oregon) to see what he did with his, but a pm on beachcats hasn't gotten
any response.

Be interesting to know how many of these devil's trailers are (still) out there.