Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

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DanBerger
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Boat Make/Model: SC 15 w/ spin!, SC 19
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Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by DanBerger »

I'm having troubles with the Jib system on my 20 and it is getting to be very frustrating. I have a boom with bullet blocks mounted a few feet from the gooseneck that are supposed to pull in the jib sheet on each side so that you can close the slot when going upwind. I'm assuming this is the proper set up for a standard overlapping jib on the 20?

When I try to get as close to the wind as I can, the whole upper part of the leech on the jib goes crazy and buzzes and the boat slows way down. If I bear off a little bit, it stops buzzing and accelerates. So, I can't point at all!

I tied a stainless ring to the end of a rope and adjusted it so that I could pull the ring all the way into the boom. I then ran the jib sheet (from the block to the clew) through the ring. Being close to the boom seems to be the best adjustment for it but it looks like it is closing the slot way too much. I also have to feed the sheet through the leeward side because the ring on that side is holding it too close to the mast and adding a nasty hook to the clew of the sail.

If I pull back on the windward jib sheet, too, it seems to make it better as far as the buzzing and sail shape. I have tried using different holes on the clew, also and it doesn't make a big difference..

What am I doing wrong??
havliii
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by havliii »

Dan, my boat had the boom mounted barber haulers with the stainless rings. The system was a giant p.i.t.a. I've noticed that some owners use the 4 way adjusting jib blocks, somewhat akin to the Prindle system. Once I narrowed the boat it became a moot point.

You might have to set up some traverseing system to move the jib blocks closer to centerline.
DanBerger
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by DanBerger »

I was trying to avoid that, but I have seen other boats with a line connecting the hulls and the jib blocks tied off to that line. Kinda like a Prindle 19/18-2 system. Makes the tramp not so comfortable, but if it makes sailing easier, I may go that route.

I'm working on putting a flip-flop block on the boom to make it easier to pull in the barber haulers. The current jam cleat set up is too difficult.

I mean, the system was set up like that to begin with--I have to be doing something wrong!
havliii
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by havliii »

DanBerger wrote:I mean, the system was set up like that to begin with--I have to be doing something wrong!
Hmmmmmmmmmm I think it might be like the original cable traveler, not the greatest solution but a necessary one. The spaghetti mess of the barber haulers and the jib sheets was just not palatable to my crew so something had to go.
DanBerger
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by DanBerger »

I'm in the camp that tries to stick with the original design because it had to have been well thought out. That's kind of the Supercat way.

I have sold the boat, but part of the deal is that I get to use it whenever I want! Along with that comes Technical support on my end, so I'm trying to figure out this jib system.

The new owner wants to move the jib blocks back on the tramp track about 2 feet, he thinks this will help. I'm not so sure about that and I don't want to go drilling extra holes. I thought about installing a traveler track from a Hobie 18 so we could adjust the block location until we found a sweet spot. I don't think this is the answer.

I saw a 20 with a line connecting the two jib block eyelets across the tramp. They had a knot tied in the line for the jib blocks and that seems to be the way to go because it moves the blocks inboard like on a smaller beam boat. However, you get a line going across the trampoline and that can't be comfortable. The boat has the net style tramp and I can run the line under the tramp to make it more comfortable, but again, I'm not crazy about that idea.

I'm hoping he gives up and goes for the self-tacking setup!!
Bill Roberts
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by Bill Roberts »

Dan,
I don't see the problem. ON the clew corner of the jib you have an adjustment plate that let's you vary the vertical angle of the jib sheet coming to the sail. This let's you vary leech tension/foot tension. Then you have a barber hauler system coming off the boom that let's you vary the athwartship sheeting angle. What more do you want? This system let's you vary both important sheeting angles of the jibsheet relative to the sail. What more could anyone ask for?
The only possible problem I can think of is that the boat has some aftermarket jib on it that doesn't fit the boat and requires jib fairleed adjustment/position that is out of the range of the system that is on the boat.
Bill Roberts
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by Bill Roberts »

Dan,
I just read your first paragraph and I think I see the problem. Both parts of the jib sheet through the boom barber hauler. A, one, bullet block won't do it . Both parts of the jib sheet should go through the boom barber hauler point. If you don't like the ring, use double blocks to reduce the friction. For proper setting sailing to windward, the rings should be about 8 ins to 12 ins off the boom. If the leech still flutters, move the jib blocks to a higher point at the clew corner of the jib, more vertical leech tension. Does the jib leech have anti flutter battens in it? These are standard.
DanBerger
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by DanBerger »

Thanks, Bill!

The jib has roller furling battens installed at an angle. I did move the shackle at the clew to a higher hole, which made it better, but not all better. I thought a ring around both lines would be pretty frictionless.

Maybe I didn't descibe the set up correctly. there are eyestraps on each side of the boom that have a small bullet block attached to them. I have a line going through each bullet block out to the two pieces of the jib sheet. There is a stainless ring at the end of that line that the two pieces of the jib sheet go through. I can pull the line on the boom to adjust the rings to and away from the boom. To me, that is pretty much the standard barberhauler set up (although reversed) on most beach cats.

I can see a double block instead of the ring making a difference. I did go to a smaller jib sheet.

And, uh, yeah. It is an aftermarket jib. I laid it on top of an old factory jib and it matched perfectly. Now, I know, I know, you're going to fuss at me for having a non-Supercat sail, but I sent my original sails off to get cleaned and they ruined them, so I had to go with a different program.

So, one more factor: the main was replaced by the sail maker that ruined my sails. Sail Care is their name and they really, really screwed me. They were not the friendliest, either. So they built a new main for me using the old one as a pattern and it looked great when I got it, but they cut it completely flat. I mean, ZERO shape and the leech and foot were completely straight. I took it to a friend's shop and they took out all the seams and restitched it and gave me a little shape, It is WAY better than it was, but not perfect.

Do you think the wind flow through the slot might be affected by that scenario??
Bill Roberts
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by Bill Roberts »

Dan,
I'm sorry but you just have a bunch of junk sails and you don't have a sailmaker around who knows how to fix anything.
The leeches on roller furling sails flutter. The battens parallel to the luff help and undercutting the leech 8 ins or so helps also. But a roller furling jib is a functional compromise relative to a non roller furling jib.
Your mainsail should have 6 ins of max luff round to it when the sail is pulled tight at the three corners. This will put a little shape in it. Move the headboard back 6ins and move the tack corner back 6ins and draw a smooth curve between these two points.
What about battens? Factory battens have the right compressions and have max bend in the right places.
What battens are in your sail? Tapered, untapered???

Your first sentence does not make any sense. "You stick with the original design and you have local dummies make your sails". There is much more to good sailmaking than matching the perimeter shape.
Get a set of factory sails and battens and your troubles will be over.
Last edited by Bill Roberts on August 20th, 2016, 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Roberts
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by Bill Roberts »

Dan,
Looking at your first post, there is nothing wrong with your jib sheeting system. As a matter of fact there is an advantage. When you play the mainsheet sailing to windward, for example, there is an advantage. As you ease the main a little in a puff, the boom moves out some and you ease the jib also. So instead of closing the main to jib slot in a puff, with this system it actually opens the slot in a puff. What could be better than that? In a puff the relative wind swings slightly more abeam so the main and jib both need to be trimmed out some in the puff. After the puff passes, trim the main in and the jib comes in with it. This system is a technology plus for SC, 1976.
Now, your jib leech flutters. You have tried increasing jib leech tension at clew plate adjustment and no improvement. Therefore my conclusion is the jib leech is stretched. A low cost solution is a leech line. Tighten the jib leech line until the leech flutter stops. The leech will be hooked to windward which is a drag but "It Doesn't Flutter". Problem solved. How old is this jib and who made it?

A litle more on jib sheeting systems. On the ARC self tacking jib system, the jib car floats along the track sailing to windward. The pressure in the sail tends to push the jib car out. The tension in the jib sheet tends to pull the car in toward boat centerline. In a puff sailing to windward the pressure in the sail increases and the car moves out slightly as it should all by itself. When the puff has passed and the jib pressure decreases, the car comes in slightly as it should all by itself. A crew person could not trim the jib in puffs this perfectly. Want to copy a Hobie or Prindle or NACRA or F18 system??? They use two lines and two cleats to trim the jib and have no self adjusting to the puffs system .
Also with the circular track jib system the jib sheet tension is constant. Therefore the friction of the jib car on the track is constant and the jib won't come across on its own in some conditions. Therefore the crew has to reach forward and pull the car across themselves. I guess this is what they mean by a "self tacking jib". You have to tack it yourself.
DanBerger
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by DanBerger »

Bill,

I'm all about the self-tacker, I have one on my 15 and I swear by it! I went with Tom's suggestion to do the straight traveler track and I got the entire set up from him except for the double block to control the jib sheet and traveler. That is a great system for a double handed boat and I had it on my first 20 (your old boat) and thought it was great. It is just too much for a 15.

We are talking about switching over to self tacking on the 20, but the new owner needs to save up a bit. That would solve all the jib problems we are having!!

So, I'm with you on the state of my sails. I don't like the main and I agree that just measuring the perimeter is not making the same sail. The company that made the main is Sale care. They obviously don't have any idea of how to make catamaran sails. I agree that getting a factory main would fix things, but again, the new owner isn't willing to spend money there. Heck, we had the boat going over 20 mph this weekend with a semi-flat sail!

The jib issue is still there. We used the factory jib and still had the buzzing problem. I got the aftermarket jib from a VERY reputable sailmaker who has made at least 20 sails for me in the past and I have always been extremely happy with them. Now, He is a HOBIE sail maker, not Supercat, so I'm sure you're fist pumping and saying "I told you so!"

So, yes, the jib isn't a Supercat jib, but it is having the same issues as the factory sail. I don't want to mention his company because I really like the guy and don't want anything negative said about him.

So, I found that if I use the barber hauler system, get the sheets about 12 inches off the boom and get a good shape, I still get the buzzing at the top of the leech. BUT, I tied another string to the ring around the sheet parts and pulled it back to the rear beam and I'll be darned if that didn't fix the buzzing.

So, now, I'm thinking of a way to move the bullet blocks on the boom farther aft. That in itself is pretty easy, but I would like to figure out how to make it adjustable so we can test it. I have some 18" jib tracks that I can rivet on the boom on each side and I have small cars that I can attach the bullet blocks to. I also have two booms so I can do the testing on one and then attach the permanent eyelets to the other.
Bill Roberts
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Re: Jib Barber Hauler system SC 20

Post by Bill Roberts »

Dan, the SC20 jib sheeting system is superior to the self tacker with no spinnaker. The barber hauler system will let you trim the sail for sailing close haul perfectly and it will let you trim the sail perfectly for sailing off the wind adjusting the barber hauler out. The self tacker, straight track, does not have this range of adjustment. The self tacker does not need the wide trim range when sailing with spinnaker. In addition the self tacker is faster tacking and jibing especially with spinnaker.
You were obviously out in strong winds going 20 mph and flatter sails are just what you want in strong winds. FULL SAILS WOULD HAVE BEEN SLOWER.
SAIL FLUTTER: The leech of a sail flutters when the leech of the sail is stretched. The vertical tension gradient in the leech of a normal sail is ever increasing as the point of interest moves toward the leech. There is more vertical load in the leech of a sail in the last inch than there is as the point of interest moves forward from the leech where the vertical load is decreasing.
When a leech is stretched so that it flutters, this load gradient is reversed. As the point of interest moves aft in the last few inches of the sail toward the leech, the vertical tension force is decreasing. The max vertical load is some 3, 4, 5, inches forward of the leech. Now this lower force or tension in the part of the sail going into the leech is free to flutter and flutter it will. To stop it from fluttering you have to reverse the tension gradient in the leech area sail. No amount of jib fairlead positioning will stop the fluttering. The max tension path going up the leech is a few inches in front of the leech and so this leaves the leech itself loose or with less tension and it is going to flutter. Moving the jib fairlead will not fix this problem.

Dan, there is one way to stop the flutter. Sheet the jib so close to horizontal that 99% of the jib sheet tension goes into the foot and 1% travels up the leech. Then the leech is so lose now that it will not flutter. Also the sail shape is so poor, leech twisted way out; it is producing no forward thrust; you can't point. The sail is producing only drag. Dan, your jib sails are worn out. Your factory roller furling jib must be 30 years old. Go sailing without the jib.
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